SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome everyone to another episode of Beyond the Case, which is a podcast where global leaders from Harvard Business School's OPM community join in a personal capacity to share the life lessons, models, and life principles that go behind building enduring companies. My guest today is Porik OKG. How are you, Porik?

SPEAKER_01 0:20

I'm Grace Saheen, and thank you so much for having me. It's a privilege and a pleasure to be on your podcast.

SPEAKER_00 0:26

Thank you. Great to have you here. For anyone who doesn't know you, how would you introduce yourself and the kind of work that you do?

SPEAKER_01 0:35

Probably the best way to introduce me is I'm a crazy Irishman. That's probably unusual for you, for somebody saying how would you describe yourself? But in order to be an entrepreneur, you've got to be a bit crazy. And I am from Ireland. So that's why I'm saying I'm a crazy Irishman. Because being an entrepreneur, you've got to jump outside your comfort zone. You've got to take risks. You gotta do stuff that you don't know how to do. You're learning as you go along. And very often you put everything on the line for it. You put whatever money you have, you can put your relationships with your partner, your spouse, your family on the line, with your friends on the line for it, and you can put your own health on the line for it because you put everything on black. And Soheen, don't you agree? You gotta be a bit crazy to do that.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

Absolutely. There's restless nights, which you may not go through, but the people around may you may go through just seeing the kind of effort you're putting in and, like you said, putting everything on the line. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

You're right, Soheen. Like I was once giving a talk to in Ireland to a couple of hundred business people, and there was this lady who was introducing me, and she stopped me during my talk, which very rarely happens, but she stopped me and she said, I've been scratching my head and wondering, she says, How do you sleep at night? And I turned around to her and said, I sleep like a baby. I wake up every hour crying.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

Very well said.

SPEAKER_01 1:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Yeah. So very well said, Poric. Could you tell us a little bit about the company that uh you started as well and what kind of work it does?

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Yeah, well, first of all, about me, my background is is quite frankly very working class. My parents didn't go to school after 12 years of age because they needed to work at home on a small farm. They're both immigrates to London in England, and they met in an Irish dance hall there. They got married and came back and raised a family, and I was the oldest in the family. So my background was very being brought up, willing to work hard, and another thing that my family instilled was integrity. Those two things were really important. So they were, and I suppose they would be the um, I suppose the foundation or the fundamentals to quite frankly who I am, and as well as I can be who I want to be. So um in relation to jump quickly ahead, my background professionally is I'm an accountant, I'm also a lawyer, sir, and uh now I'm a professor of entrepreneurship in a local university in Galway. It's an adjunct professor, so it's it's very much a part-time type of a role. And um I started a whole lot of businesses in. So one business, the one that's probably and Harvard did a case study on it a number of years ago. And I set up an airline, regional airline in Ireland and the UK. We're flying to Northern Europe, and that was that was quite successful. It had good times and it had bad times. It ended up a number of years ago that I was selected, I suppose, by judges, to be Ireland's Entrepreneur of the Year in the EY Entrepreneur of the Year. Quite frankly, I'll be totally honest with you. I I didn't know what an entrepreneur was, so I didn't. Uh but I was representing Ireland in the World Entrepreneur uh finals in May, probably 2023 or 2003 or so, in Monaco, in Monte Carlo. And I got to meet a whole lot of other winners of their countries and entrepreneurs. There's probably, I don't know, 50 or 60 or 70 different entrepreneurs there. And I really, I I could really connect with them. I could really understand what they were about. And they were like fellow travelers for me, but they were. And there were there were a a fair amount of, I suppose, similarities. Um just willing to go for it, no fear of failure, failed a whole lot of times. But the big thing was they always got back on the horse. So heen somebody once said to me, so this is not my saying, they said, What is the difference between a pat on the back and a kick on the ass? Six inches. So that's what I mean by jumping back on the horse again, by just going there and dusting yourself down. And the biggest time waster we can have in life is feeling sorry for ourselves. Do not feel sorry for yourself. Say to yourself, what am I made of now? How can I go back up again? Because I owe it to myself first, and I owe it to those people who believe in me and who love me, that I get up and I actually dust myself down. And if I fall off the horse again, so be it. I'm going to keep going because I'm going to give it my best shot. So that was it with the airline with good times, with bad times. I didn't win the World Entrepreneur Year. I ended in the top, whatever it was. And a person from India won, who I got to meet briefly. His name, his name was Murti. You might have heard of him in URTY. He had a whole lot of successful businesses in India at the time. Now I've I've totally lost touch with him and his company. And then the following year, I was invited back by EY Globally to be one of the judges to pick the best entrepreneur in the world. So I was a judge for the World Entrepreneur of the Year for the following two years. And then I was chairman of the Irish judging panel to pick the best entrepreneur in Ireland. So I really got to see underneath the bonnet, underneath the cover, of really what makes an entrepreneur? What values do they have? What's their modus operandi? How does their brain work? What motivates them? What demotivates them? What frustrates them? What does success mean to them? Type of a thing. So I found it a really fascinating journey for myself because, you know, Soheen, I was learning about myself all the time. So I was the best PhD, Soheen, you, or anybody who's watching this program, best PhD you could ever do was a PhD on yourself. To really get to know yourself. Who are you really as a person? And that is an amazing, amazing journey. And it's actually probably the most important journey you'll ever do in your life.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

Very, very well said. You know, when you said Mr. Murti, I had some guesses. I just Googled who won the EY Entrepreneur of the Year in 2003. It's Mr. Narayan Murti. He is a India. The founder of, I believe he founded Vipro, um tech consulting, InfoSys, sorry.

SPEAKER_01 6:59

He founded Infosys, that's it. You're right, correct. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:02

And that guy's a legend here. You know, that's about his life. And the fact that, you know, besides he's a man full of principles. He talks about the way he approaches decisions and eliminates waste. And I think that is something a lot of youth are inspired by the way he lives his life, but does not try to splurge despite being one of the most valued individuals in the country and the most successful. I'm amazed that uh you know you were competing with him.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

You had uh the opportunity to spend so much time one-on-one with him. Incredible.

SPEAKER_01 7:37

Yeah, I didn't spend so much time with him. I met him a couple of times and and I could sense he was he was a very humble person. He's also a very spiritual person and and very much aware of where he was at in life and where he was going. But he also believed strongly in other people and actually being there to facilitate other people growing. So he did. And I I I took those values with me, and I I very, very much respected those values because unfortunately, Soheen, there's very, very few people who got all of those values actually in life, unfortunately. And I think they miss out on an awful lot of, I'll use the term, the color of life. You can see life in black and white or you can see it in color. People like Murti see it in color, they see it in three-dimensional, and it's so much a different world when you look at the world in three-dimensional and full color rather than black and white. I'm only using an analogy here, but it's an amazing, amazing world to step into that. And you know what? You deserve it. You really deserve that. So give it to yourself as a little present.

SPEAKER_00 8:45

Porek, you spoke about, you know, the the difference of six inches between a pat on your back and a kick on your rear end. That means, and you said one should get back on the horse again, attempt again, keep on trying. What would you tell someone who has been trying is probably exhausted, in out of financial resources, and probably doesn't believe that there is light at the end of the tunnel. Every attempt is just a learning curve. Okay. What point do you say?

SPEAKER_01 9:10

That's a that's a that's yeah, that's a great question. First of all, actually, I just see it there now. Behind my shoulder there, that's the trophy I won for Ireland's Entrepreneur of the Year. So yeah, that's that's actually I I just noticed it there. You know, we all go through tough times. Some of us go through tougher times than others. Um in every I would be probably it'd be spiritual, but not necessarily religious, if you know what I mean. So um I I believe there is teaching, quite frankly, in all religion, but particularly in deepened spirituality, in relation to dogma and difficulties and challenges in life. It will happen to all of us. It has happened to all of us. And it's not, is it going to happen or not? And it happens more to some. It's not, is it not going to happen or not? The question to ask yourself, how are you going to deal with it when it does happen? I have seen, like for example, I remember running the New York Marathon, raising money for a hospital for sick children here in Ireland. And I saw people on wheelchairs, I saw one person on crutches and only one leg doing 26 miles, running around New York. And you know what? Before I saw him, I felt sorry for myself. I said, I will never finish this. And I've got two legs and I'm healthy. Do you know? So, and that person was there and going, and there was no way that he was not going to finish it. So things happen to all of us. And some people it's much more challenging than others. But my good God, when you look around you, just allow, you have to open your eyes to, and I mean, really open your eyes to see inspiration. And you'll see inspiration every place. You'll see inspiration every place. There was this lady and her husband were running the New York Marathon because they were just so thankful that their little two-year-old child got medical support from this hospital. And I just wanted, in a in a financial way, but more in a personal way, to thank that hospital in their own way for doing that. So we can look around and say, yeah. Actually, Soheen, I'm going to mention something to you, if I may. Back to Harvard. And when I was in college in Ireland, I got a scholarship to do a postgrad in Harvard. But I didn't even tell my parents about it because they scholarship covered the fees, but did not cover accommodation or flights. And they, there's no way they could afford it. And anyway, they didn't know what Harvard was. Years afterwards, when I was representing Ireland and the World Entrepreneur of the Year, I met this. We were invited out to America by the American Entrepreneur of the Year program, EY, and I happened to be sitting at dinner one night with this person called Bill Gallagher from New Zealand. And he was New Zealand Entrepreneur of the Year at the same time. And he told me, just in conversation, he says, the best program I've ever done pork in my life is OPM at Harvard, owners, managers, presidents. If you do nothing else, will you please do this? At this stage I could afford it. And I did OPM. And I really enjoyed it. Now, it was very tough because my business was going through a tough time at the time. But there's never a perfect time to do anything. It's always easy to find reasons why not to do it. But you gotta push yourself and say, and the reason I'm saying that's this so he, and this is probably this is probably the most important slide you're going to put in your head. There was a professor there, you may remember her, and I'm sure many of the people watching this program will. An amazing strategy professor called Cynthia Montgomery. Do you remember Cynthia?

SPEAKER_00 13:00

I'm I've just done Unit One, I'm still uh enrolling.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

Oh, okay, okay, okay. Well, Cynthia Montgomery, you ask about Cynthia Montgomery. Uh to me, Cynthia Montgomery is a legend. Cynthia Montgomery asked us there was maybe 120, 150 people in the lecture hall at OPM. And she asked us, I was the only Irish person there. They were from all over the world. She asked us, how do you know if your business has a good strategy? In one sentence. Tell me, how do you know your business has a good strategy? Come on, you're all business people, you're all successful business people, or you think you are. You're building businesses, you're here, you're obviously interested in learning, you're smart people. Give me one sentence. There was silence for two or three minutes, and then some people put up their hand and spoke. And I said, Well, it's got to do with success and how successful you are, and you gotta change strategy and so on. And she didn't say, Stop. No, you're all wrong. It's one sentence because we were all saying different things. And I remember writing she or she wrote on on a pad and it came up on the screen behind her on the white screen. What she said. This is the question you ask about your business strategy. And if you take nothing else away from this conversation but this, please take this. The question she asked, what is the world with you versus the world without you? Does your business make any difference? Any real difference? And if it does, what is that difference? Is it meaningless or meaningful? So he I went back to Ireland, west of Ireland, where I live. I live in a very in quite a small house. This is a house my father had been to his own hands. My kids are grown up now, just my wife and I. And I can look across what we call Galway Bay. It's a lovely bay here. Bing Crosby, the American singer, made it famous once. And I just look out, actually looking out the window now. And it's just amazing. And it's just very, very special for me. And I have written down, for me, what is the world with me versus the world without me? And so I'm asking you, I'm gonna challenge you. And I'm gonna challenge every single person who's watching this. Will you write down on a piece of paper what is the world with you versus the world without you? Can I say one last thing about that? Go ahead. Um a number of years ago, our prime minister phoned me up. And after a little general chit-chat, he said to me, Porik, he could nominate, he could pick 11 senators, people to be senators in Ireland. And he would like there are 66-0 senators, but he can pick, he or she, it happens to be he, can pick 11. He says, I'd like to invite you to be a senator. I says, Why me? Well, he says, because of your entrepreneurship, you think outside the box, you're not afraid to say what you think, and you will bring a certain level of knowledge to it that's probably not in there already. Oh, I said, Thank you, Prime Minister, but I'm not a member of your political party. He says, I know that. Actually, I'm not a member of any political party. I was never a member of a political party in my life. He says, We know that too. We've done our homework. I said, Okay. So I had an office with the Irish Parliament, and I had a secretary, an excellent secretary, and we had a whiteboard that we used to do out our plans on what we're going to do and what we're going to try and push and support and so on. And I was telling her this story over a coffee one morning. The following day, when I went into the office on the whiteboard in permanent ink, she had written up what is the world with us versus the world without us. Years afterwards, I left the Senate. I didn't go back. I I didn't want to go back. I I'd given my time to it. And this guy phoned me up, who was a new senator, and he says, Hey Porry, great to talk to you. I'm using your office. It's a lovely office. I said, fantastic. He said, I had one problem. He says, I'm trying to rub off that thing on that that sentence on the whiteboard and it won't come off for me because my secretary had it in permanent ink. I said, it's not meant to come off. That's meant to stay there. When I explained the story to him, he was big time taken aback by it. And he said, I'm going to make sure that never comes off. So I mean, it doesn't matter about the pat on the back or the kick on the backside. It's the world with you versus the world without you. And every single person can make a difference for the better.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

Every single person. Thank you, Boric. Um, how do you define a wise man or a wise person? I never thought about that before.

SPEAKER_01 17:42

A wise person, probably the most important thing about a wise person, if I give it in one word, is awareness. Because awareness brings in a lot of things. If you're not aware, it's difficult to be wise. But if you are aware, you're intuitive, you're in tune, you're aware of two main areas. You're aware of yourself, you've knowledge of yourself, like the PhD I said that you do on yourself. But not only that, but you're aware of the world around you. You've got good awareness. And I used to be a mathematics teacher a long time ago, Soline. I used to, one of the things we used to teach would be Venn diagrams. And I I think in pictures. So if you think of a Venn diagram, actually put up the slide in your head. So you've got a blank sheet of paper and you put up a Venn diagram with two circles, and they overlap a little bit in the middle. And you put a, let's call it a box around that and call that box awareness. And in that box awareness, you have two circles and they overlap a little bit. And one circle, the one on the left, is you, and the one on the right is the world outside of you as a person. The internal and the external. And awareness is aware of each of those and where they overlap.

SPEAKER_00 18:58

Very well said. But what inspired to then go ahead and write a book, The Purposeful Decision Maker, which has been very well received. You've won a couple awards for it as well. You just won gold at the 2026 Axiom Business Book Awards as well. Um so congratulations firstly on all the success. And I believe your book is also the number one new release on Amazon now. That's right. So what inspired you to go ahead and write this book?

SPEAKER_01 19:23

I don't like call it inspiration. And sometimes things happen. Inspiration happens from the outside in or from the inside out. It was the beginning of COVID, Sohim. And I would have mentored a number of Irish Olympic athletes and professional rugby players and so on. And there was a person I was mentoring who was an athlete who was setting up his own business a long time ago. And he he phones me up and he says to me at the beginning of COVID, hey Porek, how are you? What's your COVID plan? What's your COVID strategy? I said, What do you mean? Well he said, What are you going to do? We could be locked down for another week, a month, six months, a year. You cannot live the life the normal way you used to live it. And you gotta you gotta have a plan. I said, I never thought about that. The only plan I have is not to get it if I can. He says, No, no, I've been telling you for years to write the book, and he had. And uh I said to him, I don't, I'm not able to write a book. He says, You are. He has written three books and he had a writing coach or a writing mentor. I will connect you with my writing mentor. Even if you say no, I'm still going to connect you with my writing mentor, and he did. And we had Zoom calls and and we actually met and we walked kind of a meter apart and so on. And I was going to write about leadership, Soheem, because I'm passionate about leadership. And after a while, after three or four meetings, this guy said to me, You're not writing about leadership. I said, I'm not writing at all. So he says, No, you're going to write a book about something else. And I said, What? And why not leadership? Well, he said, leadership books are wall to wall in any bookshop you go to. He says, it's just the place is drowned with leadership books. He said, You're going to write about something that's actually more important, more fundamental. And I said, What? He said, Hear me out. He said, You had an airline for 26 years, you're up to 900 flights a week, you carried 1.3 or 4 million passengers. And in 900 flights a week, you never had one accident. Not one. I said, that's true. He says, remember you asked me, I asked him, what's the single most important word in aviation? Everybody who's listening and watching this, I'm asking you to ask yourself, what's the single most important word in your business? I don't want an elevator pitch. It takes too long from the elevator to go from the top to the bottom. One word. And if you cannot find that word, quite frankly, search for it because it's important. So the single most important word in aviation, single most important word is safety. If you don't have a safe airline, you won't have passengers, you won't have pilots, you won't have crew, you won't have an airline, you'll have no income. And very often, And the single most important word in a business, it's not financial. It's more fundamental than financial. So that's a tip for you if you're looking at what's the most important word in my business. And then ask yourself, what's the single most important thing about safety? And the single most important thing about safety that I've been working on for 26 years is decision making. Think of Captain Sully going into the Hudson River. He was not trained for that. But he was caught and he had to make a very quick decision with various variables and parameters coming at him that he wasn't trained for. And he had to quickly decide what's the best thing for me to do in order to have the maximum level of safety for my staff and my crew. Just that. So I didn't realize that, but I knew from 26 years ago that safety is the number one thing. So I actually created the environment to provide the tools, the resources, the training, the support to my team to make the best decisions they could, given whatever circumstances they were in. And in Sohine, I realized that there's very, very few books on decision making. And decision making is the most important thing you'll ever do in your life. We can make thousands of decisions every day or every week, really small decisions. And that's fine. That's okay. But there are some major decisions we make in life and in business. And all I'm doing is, and I did a good bit of research on this as well, is bringing out there to life a process for people to actually take themselves and to say, okay, this is a process I suggested. What do I think of it? Can I modify that process to suit me and create a process that works for them in decision making? It's not been taught in universities that I'm aware of. And if you're an accountant, which I was, you learn to make decisions based financially. If you're a lawyer, which I was, you learn to make decisions based on legislation and precedent in case studies. If you're a politician, which I was, it's a different way that decisions are made. Very, very different. And what I did is I pulled those kind of experiences together, as well as my experience in entrepreneurship, as well as my experience in aviation, as well as the whole area of evidence-based research into decision making, to create. Now, I did it out of a pastime. I did it something to do during COVID. I had never planned or thought it would win very significant awards, or it would have been a bestseller like you mentioned, because that wasn't my purpose. But some of my purpose was just to do something that was on my chest and my head to get it out there. And that was all. But it actually brought me on a totally different, exciting, amazing journey. At some stage, at some stage, because I said at the beginning that Harvard did a case study on me, at some stage, I'd love to call to Harvard to OPM and just have a conversation about decision making. Ask people, how do you make decisions? What works for you, what doesn't work for you? Did you ever make a good decision that didn't work out? I have. Have you ever made a bad decision and actually it ended up going okay? I have. But you just interrogate and analyze your decision-making process. No matter So he man, maybe speaking too much.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

No, that is incredible. Um, I do want to ask you, outside of your own book, is there a book which has influenced the way you think that you'd want to talk to us about?

SPEAKER_01 25:23

There's there's a couple of really great books. There's one author that I hugely respect and admire, and that's Adam Grant. Adam has written a number of books, and the one that meant most to me personally was called Givers and Takers. And the reason is I've never met Adam Grant. I'd love to meet him sometime. But the reason that it means so much to me is it's a book I wish I read in my early 20s or as a teenager. And if you want to really sell out, is there any one book that stands out? Ask yourself, would that book have made a difference to my life if I read it as a teenager or in my early 20s? Just that question. And for me, I'm very much a giver, not a taker. And I'm fine with that. But what stresses me is that when people take advantage of my giving, and that kind of bothers me, so it does, I'll be honest with you. But I'm still going to be a giver. So there's nothing perfect, so there isn't. But I love to see people doing well. I love to see people being, I was going to say successful, who might talk about success in a minute or two or whenever it suits. But I I'll use the term successful here and now, but that's a little bit in in brackets. So there's an inverted commas.

SPEAKER_00 26:33

Talk to me about your thinking behind the definition of success.

SPEAKER_01 26:37

That was a big one for me. And it really only dawned on me when there was a YPO program in Pune and India with Swami Pertanese. And I attended that program. It was called Life in Focus. I found it to be a brilliant program. A person called William Frey, F-R-E-Y, a YPO in South Africa, set up the program and it was, I found it amazing. And that's where I started, or it triggered me to ask the questions about success. And I challenged myself and I remember coming back from Mumbai to, I think, Dubai, and then the second plane back to Dublin and Ireland. And I spent the I didn't watch TV or watch anything. I just I was thinking about the programme and I was thinking particularly about that question about success. And I started asking myself, I know a lot of, as you do, Soheen, and sure everybody heared it, you know a lot of successful people. Really, really successful people. And when you lift the cover up, unfortunately, too many of those are not really happy. So I wanted to ask myself, what is the difference between success and happiness? Because in school, you get good grades, that's success. You go to college, university, you get good grades, that's success. You get a good job that pays well, that's success. You live in a nice house and a nice neighborhood, that's success. If you play sport, if you get on the team, that's success. If you get onto a bigger team, that's more success. If you're an Olympic athlete or a professional sports player and you're getting a good income, everybody sees you as very successful. And unfortunately, so we know I've met a number of those people who are not happy in business, in entrepreneurship, in sport, and in life. So I asked myself the question on that airplane, what's the gap? What's the problem? Because what we're after in life is happiness. We think success will give it to us. Not necessarily at all. Because they're two different two different things. Years ago, the Irish entrepreneur alumni we went to Haiti for a retreat, and we helped build some houses and schools for kids in Haiti, and we saw hundreds of kids. Two things struck me about them. One was most of them had a t-shirt with Disneyland on it. Because a lot of Haitians people went to Miami and Florida and they would send clothes back to their kids or grandkids or cousins or friends in Haiti. The second thing that struck me, which was more pronounced, was how happy and smiling those kids were. And did nothing. I said, wow. So it's really important for all of us to distinguish between what makes us successful and what makes us happy. Really important. And an important part of happiness, I go back to the your your great question about a wise person, is awareness. And a key part to awareness, another key part to it in relation to this section, is gratitude. Being grateful for some, if not all, of the really good things that are that have happened or happening to you in your life. And not to allow yourself to get, and it's in the mind, it's this top six inches, not to allow yourself to get bogged down in negativity, because there is so much negativity out there, unfortunately. But you gotta build your mind and brain up to say, good, I've got, I'm doing okay. And the last thing you do is to compare yourself with others. Just because somebody is driving a fancy car doesn't mean you have to drive one. Just because somebody has 50,000 euro dollar watch doesn't mean you have to have one. Happiness comes from the inside out, not from the outside in. That's I've gone a bit deeper there because you meant success. Success on its own will not give you happiness. I've seen a lot of successful people. And what we're really after is is happiness. And happiness is something, if you again as I think in pictures and put up this slide, you've got an x-axis and you have a y-axis. And happiness kind of goes in a curve shape. It goes up and down and up and down. The big thing you want to work on is to be aware of that curve, to do what you can to make sure it doesn't go too low, it doesn't spike too low or spike too high. Keep it within a range. And that range, the name of that range is contentment and gratitude. I'm content with who I am, where I am, what I have.

SPEAKER_00 31:12

Very, very well said, Poric. And uh I appreciate everything that you shared. I have one last question for you. If you could go back to a younger version of yourself and maybe ask that person to do something differently, right? What would you say? What would you do differently if you were maybe 20 years old today?

SPEAKER_01 31:30

That's a great question. The second biggest thing that hurt me personally, that caused me serious issues. Like a number of years ago, I f I got a heart attack. I was medically, clinically dead. And unfortunately, the doctors got me back. And look, the gods or whatever you want were on my side. And what caused that was stress. And what caused the stress was not the issues with the business. I could deal with that. Actually, it was during the financial crisis and people weren't flying, people letting money, banks were didn't have the cash flow, so if you had a loan with the bank, they were making life difficult for you. Fuel prices, unfortunately now again, was going through the roof, all of those things. They're all external factors. And they're factors I had little or no control over. But what caused my heart attack was people I trusted who went to school me and caused problems for me. And I was speaking once in London business school to postgrads, and afterwards there was at a dinner and there was a professor and a lady in London business school sitting beside me. And she said to me, she asked me kind of generally that question, and I told her a little bit of the story. And she said, Have you, there's a great book you should read. And so heen, this is going to summarize the answer to your question. And the great book, it's called Snakes in Suits. Because I've come across a few snakes in suits. And I wish to God that I could see those snakes coming because I would have been able to avoid them. And I wouldn't have had to gone through the serious trauma and stress that not only me, but my wife and family had to go through as well because I was going through it, because they love me. It's not just you, it's actually the people who really care for you are going through as much stress as you were. And they probably will not even tell you because I love you too much. So that's my answer to that question.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

Fantastic conversation. Thank you very much, Porik. How can someone get access to your book? Is it on Amazon?

SPEAKER_01 33:26

Yeah, it's on it's on Amazon. And I've also got a website to look up my name, PoricoKage.com, or do a Google search on it. They'll find it. There's a number of Google things about me out there, but they'll they should get um they should get my website as well. And uh if not too many, I've no problem personally signing the book for them as well. So I am, with just a little message if they want to email me, because of the way there you can you can send a message and email it um if they're interested in reading the book. But Soheen, the book is not about me. It's about you if you're reading the book, how you interpret the book for your life, for your decision making. That was the purpose of the book, to challenge people to think about how they make decisions. Review decisions they made poorly, review decisions they made well. What were the factors? How can you improve your life by reading the book? And it's back to the one sentence, Cynthia Montgomery. What's the world with you versus the world without you? The purpose of this book is to help help you or think through a little bit more about making that different. And going not necessarily considering happiness versus success for you. It's kind of different for all of us. Anyway, we leave it at that, Sorina. It's been a huge privilege speaking to you. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Yeah, have a good one. You too, sir. God bless you. Bye.