SPEAKER_01 0:00

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Yeah. Hey. Welcome everyone. Uh this is Sohan Shah. Uh welcome to Beyond the Case, which is a podcast where global leaders from Howard Business School's OPM community join in a personal capacity and they share the real decisions, life lessons, mental models which go behind building enduring companies. Today's guest is Jivorg Shah Bazia. Jivorg is at HBS right now. His unit one starts on Sunday. How are you, Jivorg?

SPEAKER_01 0:32

Hey, how are you, Saiyan? Very good, my friend. Very good. Very excited with the start of the program and joining this wonderful community, school, and this amazing people around the world. So I'm beyond excited.

SPEAKER_00 0:46

Can you give us a quick introduction on yourself and your company?

SPEAKER_01 0:50

Yes, yes, of course. So my name is Georg Shabaizan. I'm the founder and CEO of the Star Life Group and Companies. It's a real estate, it's a vertically integrated real estate development company based in Miami, Florida. And we have from real estate development, construction, acquisitions, financing, brokerage, insurance, and property management services. I might have missed a couple of them, but I think uh it's it covers A to Z from the entire development cycle. And I believe we are one of the very few of them in the state of Florida that actually does A to Z. The only parts that we don't have under our umbrella yet is the design and engineering and title. The rest of them we do have under our umbrella. And that allows us to develop much faster, build quickly, cheaper. And frankly speaking, you know, sometimes even it makes sense to build in a in a in a market where a lot of developers are hesitant to build, we continue building because we believe that first it's we're saving at least 20-30% on the average building cost, like the other developers or the builders would do. And we are not losing any time between the different parties. So if there is an issue or if there is a decision need to be made in-house, we can make that in in like very quickly. The decision makers are me and my brother. We run the whole company together. We build it, found it in 2018. And I'm very proud that last year in 2025, Star Life Group has been awarded the uh top 100 uh developers in the world. And uh we became a very prominent company in a very short time. We currently do about 2,000 units under about 5 million square feet. We have projects in Europe and South Florida, but 95% of our projects are in South Florida.

SPEAKER_00 2:53

So going back to your roots, you initially studied international relations and global affairs. Yes. You wanted to you had ambitions for diplomacy. So what brought you to real estate?

SPEAKER_01 3:06

Man, that's uh that's a question that takes me back many years. But when I was growing up, I my my family was traveling all the time, and I was born in Armenia. And we had been traveling all the time, and we lived, and I mean living by more than three to six months in different countries, and I think it would probably be 25 to 30 countries. So that was Armenia, Russia, Kazakhstan, Georgia, it was Belgium, France, Germany, in different places. We spent you know many months, different schools, and I was always very curious about uh human interaction, getting to know people, becoming friends, and so that kind of really interested me. And in addition, because I've been traveling from a young age, it was always interesting to me to find new places, new music, new food, new environments, and kind of you wanted to leave the old shores and find the new ones. You know, for me it was very exciting. And eventually, my father, as an immigrant, you know, we ended up coming to Los Angeles first. We stayed in LA, and then after about a year, we moved to Miami, completely new place for us. I mean, we had we didn't know anything. I was 14 years of age at the time. I didn't speak any language, I didn't know anything about American culture, nothing at all. And I had to start from zero, like parachuting into a new place, uh new language, and one of the coolest things was that my photographic memory was very well because I didn't know any letters. So I had to understand how the words are written. So uh, you know, but it was a wild journey after 18 years of staying in Miami. You know, I think this is one of the best places in the world. I don't know if you have been to Miami, but I think this is an incredible place to live, work, grow. And it also has its other perks and ups and downs. But I think if you look at it generally compared to the other cities, Miami has a lot to offer. And so how did you break into real estate then? So after graduating with my master's degree from Florida International University, I couldn't find jobs. So I applied at least 60 jobs, and I didn't get any of them. And I was with the master's degree, I had several languages, I had done internships in Washington, D.C. And I was like, you know, I will be the perfect candidate, but the jobs that I would get was offering like 40,000 a year. And I eventually took one, but it only took me three months, and I said, you know, it's not for me. So one thing to study and understand the theories of international relations and traveling, and then another thing is to actually work, which 70 or 80% of my work was in the office, and I didn't like that. I wanted to be outside. And I came back, I started to talk to my brother, my parents, and I told my father, I said, Look, I've I've tried everything and I don't know what to do. And my father said, Why don't you try real estate? Real estate sales associate, like uh realtor. And he said, That's one of the careers that you can start without having much of your own capital. So he said, You should give it a try. And I said, Yeah, but I went to school for six years. He said, Don't worry about it. You're young, go try different things, and then later in life you'll you'll decide if you want to come back to it. So I went, I took my real estate exam, I got into, I got my license, and I'm like, okay, now I think I'm gonna make it. After one year, I felt like, you know what, it's not working. I don't know what to do, I cannot make any money, and I only had very few commissions that I made. One of the deals that I did was a thousand dollar rental, and my commission was$300. And I'm like, that's not even enough for my gas. And I went back to my broker and I told him, I said, Look, you know, I have bills, I have this, I have student loans. How can I survive in this business? And he told me, you know, you are a great guy, you're trying very hard. He said, I'll give you one of my clients. If you can close the deal on them, then we can split the commission. I said, Great. So he gave me this amazing Brazilian couple that were looking a place in Miami. I spent about two, three months of showing them different properties, and eventually uh they agreed to buy, which was uh about$2 million property. I negotiated down to$1.577500 to the last cent. And then my commission was$54,000 with the change. So now I got the check and I'm sitting on a desk and I'm like, you know, it took me two months to make$54,000 and I was supposed to work an entire year and make$40,000. So I said, maybe if I focus a little bit more on the right places in real estate, maybe I'll make it. So when I went back to the broker, I said, you know, I want to thank you for the opportunity. And instead of 50-50, I want you to keep 70% and give me 30% because you trusted me. And he told me that nobody has ever done that. Everybody wants the opposite. Everybody wants to make the more percentage. And he said, Because you did that, I'm gonna give you the rest of my clients, and then I will teach you whatever I have learned in the past 15 years, I'll teach you. So basically, he he mentored me for the next two years, and this was probably the best investment because what he learned in 15 years, he taught me that in two years. So I saved a lot of time on that. And after that, I became the best-selling uh realtor one after like this year, next year, the following year. And my commissions were like, I don't know, three, four hundred thousand, half a million and up. And I was like, you know what, uh, it's great, but I want to do something more interesting. And uh I started looking for properties that can be developed, and I found my first partner who invested into the deal, and uh I ran all the operations and he put the capital, and the project was amazingly successful. We got about 60% return on the investment, and we made clean$1.7 million profit. And I was like, wow, this is great. Once it hits my account, I'm like, it looks beautiful. And then I was like, now I can take this, become more efficient, grow it, and after 12 years of doing that, now you know we do much larger deals, much more efficient, much better, faster. We have a great team, and we grew Star Life Group into one of the top uh 100 uh development companies in the world. And last year, actually, red awards from New York and Miami gave me the youngest developer in Miami world. I was 30, just turned 31. My birthday was like one month before. So very humbling story, but it took me where I am, it took a lot of effort. But I found myself back into OPM because I want to scale up the company now and hopefully in five to ten years make it to public. But that's my plan right now to grow and scale.

SPEAKER_00 10:34

Incredible, a very, very inspiring story. Love the fact that you know uh you started as a realtor, which we all know is a very, very tough uh real estate agent, which is a pretty tough business because you're only working for commissions. But after you had your first win, uh you did not let that make you feel comfortable. You got hungrier and you dream dreamt bigger.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

That's very unique. You know, I think the most important thing to understand is that my broker told me that at the time that there is about 400,000 agents in South Florida. That means that every family has one member that is a realtor. So, how great you have to be for them not to pick their family and pick you. You know, this was the toughest moment. But I realized that the commission-based, it's a great business if that's what you want to do. But there was a time where I wanted to do more. I wanted to grow and I wanted to do more and build, and I was very interested in developments. I was so interested that if I would drive around a property and I saw development and construction, I would stop by, go and find either a project manager or a general contractor and ask them if they would allow me to walk the property. And most of the time they would. And I would just be so excited to see how the development actually happens from the entire process. And, you know, the way that it started, it actually started Googling like what is real estate development. That's how I started. And I started to get all the books I could, all the programs I could. And then last year I also took with the Harvard Design School Advanced Management Development Program, which is their real estate development program. And we got to work with the city and uh 50-acre property on a master plan. Our project was about 14 and a half million square feet, about um 16 billion dollar project cost, but valuation was about 30. We got to work on this kind of large-scale projects, and frankly speaking, I got so excited on those projects. Then when I came back to Miami to work on one building, I'm like, you know what? I like the other one better. Now I want to see how I can go into uh, you know, master plans. What is the program called again? It's called Advanced Management Development Program, AMDP, with the Graduate School of Design. And it attracted one of the best, I would say probably one of the top developers in the whole world. It's it was not an OPM class. OPM has more than 140, 150 people. This program had about 40, 35 to 40 people. So it's a much smaller scale, but uh 90% of the students were developers. And there were some of them that work on projects like, you know, uh no project less than$5 billion.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

And so once you decided to start your own company, what were some of the harder moments in your early years of building the company that people have not seen because these were all behind the scenes? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:49

Uh saying, so you know probably that when creating a company or founding a company, one of the toughest probably for me was finding the right people. Uh, because development is a very tricky business in a sense that for us as a real estate developer, there is no salary. So we get paid upon successful project completion. So that means that you have to be able to preserve for three to four years until the project is finished. And then, yes, you get paid a lot of money at the end, but then you have to be able to balance it throughout the next. So somebody that understands finances, somebody that has the patience, somebody that loves development, the team was the difficult part. And I have about 20 people under my payroll, and I handpicked every single one of them. And I mean handpicked. I walked into places, offices, buildings, projects. I like them and I recruited them personally. Every single one of them. And that was probably the toughest part because right now, when I'm planning to scale, uh, you know, and I'm running the company, but I'm also thinking that probably this would be the right time to have or hire a professional executive team that will continue running the company, but it feels like it's my baby, and it's very hard to just give it to another, you know. Like that's why this is probably still one of the toughest parts because I'm still trying to always look for a good talented team. But I can tell you one thing that if I see a talent, I pay them more than anybody else. Because I want that talent with me, not against me working with my opponent. So I try to get them, even though I have to pay them a little bit more, I try to give them a lot of incentives on the project so they not only get salary, but they also get a success uh fee upon completion of each milestone on each project. So my project managers get paid very well. And I mean like very well. Some of them are like at 300,000 and up.

SPEAKER_00 15:54

How has your definition of success changed from your early 20s to where you've gotten now?

SPEAKER_01 16:00

You know, I would say that it's very difficult for me to think that I am successful because I have been hustling so much that there wasn't a moment there where I could relax, take a reflective moment and say, you know, you did great, good job, and you came through all this way. And it's like always hustling, always doing new things, always growing. But success for me, I think, has different meanings. You know, we are very family-oriented. So if I'm successful, then my family has to be successful as well. I think that's number one for me. If I'm successful and my family is not, then you know, I don't need that. As far as I I don't look at uh success or measure it by the amount of money or the capital or whatever is being created. I look at it first, let's say if I have freedom to be able to go and see my kids during lunchtime, you know, to be able to see them, to be able to see them grow. I mean, those are my biggest uh successes in life. You know, business is great, it provides everything that we want in life, but at the same time, when you have to be able to use we have businesses to be able to have more time and spend with our families. But if you are 100% involved in the business, that's great initially. But at the same time, you have to be able to balance it. For me, success is probably being able to balance life with family and being able to enjoy, you know, like you take care of your business and then your business takes care of you. I think that's for me success.

SPEAKER_00 17:46

I think that's a very, very thoughtful, beautiful answer. You've reflected a lot on this, I can tell. Yes, because they ask me what's your favorite project.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

The answer is always next one, you know. So it never stops. But sometimes you have to, you know, take a step back and reflect the journey that you came and the people around you that made it happen, and then, you know, having you enjoy your time with them. I think that's that's very important for me.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

When you face difficult decisions or setbacks today, what are some of the principles that you lean on or some mental frameworks which guide you through decision making in those moments?

SPEAKER_01 18:27

You know, I'm blessed to have a brother as a partner. So there is a, I don't know if you know, but the Spartans had a two-king uh leadership style. And the two kings had to be agreeing on both of the decisions before it could move on. Yes, I'm the founder, I'm the CEO of the company, but uh I make decisions with my brother. We run the whole company together, we push it wherever it needs to go together. So when there is a difficult decision, sometimes I just try to not think about it and just do like different things, and then the answer comes to me. Or I discuss with my brother to see what would be the best option, because sometimes two brains discussing the same idea, finding an answer is much easier than you doing it yourself. But ultimately the decision comes to these specific steps that I take. One of them is I understand or I think about what's the best outcome that could happen, and then what's the worst outcome that could come from this decision, and then what's the most likely outcome that happens. So understanding between these three and understanding that the most likely outcome is going to be better than the worst, I go for it. I'm a risk taker, but at the same time, I don't take risks that are just out of blue. I have to be able to have data analysis to understand that I'm doing the right decision, and then always having multiple exit strategies, especially with the development. So I'll give you one example. We recently got a property in January this year, and it's a mix-use development project. We got with an amazing price. We are getting the Cyplan approval next month, and the project is it's a high-rise building with apartments plus a retail on the ground level. But a worst case scenario, that building has a tenant currently that pays us rent. And then if I had to delay my project, then the tenant pays for the mortgage. And then if it's absolute worst time, then I can just demolish that place and just build a retail, one-story retail commercial building with the cap rate, the building and the numbers would be amazing. So I have at least three to four exit strategies on all the projects that I do. Another example I can give you, I have another development project that I'm completing this October. And one of them is let's say it's a refinance exit, hold and refi. Second is I can convert to condos if I want, or I can sell it. So I have always three to four options. If you don't have any options, I think that's when you are uh stuck. But when you have options and flexibility, then I think you'll be okay. So for me, it's always first to have options, second to be able to make decisions, what's the best, worst, and likely outcome of all of these decisions.

SPEAKER_00 21:31

Very well said. In real estate, as a lender, what I've observed is the people who find it challenging to repay loans or go delinquent are the ones who are banking on just one exit strategy because interest rates can change. Yeah. The market can cool down as well. And so if you have the right kind of capital backing you, it's patient, it gives you the ability to be flexible with your decisions and exit options. That's what leads to success. Most developers, and I can see that you've gone through that entire journey.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

That's absolutely right. And to add on that, I think another point is let's say that most of the projects or developers, especially Condor projects, they try to limit the equity as much as possible. And I think that could backfire because most of my projects have at least 30%, at least 30%. Some of them have 40% equity. Yes, it's a bit high, but at the same time, I can sleep at night. I know that the project is secured. I know that, you know, before I start, my finances of the project have to be spot on. I don't start a project and then figure out after six months where I'm going to find the money. I get the property and the contract secured and then I try to find partners immediately. And before I close on a partner, I already know that I have all my finances spot on ready. You know, and then I can move to the next project. Instead of me worrying about the same project for three years, you know, I know some developers, I mean, they've been in a business for a while, but they still make a major mistakes like that, where they get the property with the investors' money and then they sit on it and they don't close on the property, and then they try to raise more money to close on the first property and they get the second and third on a way. And I'm like, you know, at some point you will crack under pressure. You know, it's you can't move like that. But sometimes it works because of the right market. If the market is right, they got, in my opinion, lucky. And I think when the market is tough, especially with the condo market right now, I think a lot of them would struggle. And I had at least five to ten developers calling me and giving me amazing deals to come in as a co-partners. But I'm like, man, you already started the wrong way. I'm ahout, you know. But if if if they're doing the things the right way, then of course we would love to be partners. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

And so, what in your journey brought you to OPM? How do you identify this program? You said you already uh did another program at Harvard last year. The advanced management development program. So why OPM now?

SPEAKER_01 24:21

You know, I was debating between the two programs last year, which one to take. A friend of mine had taken OPM and he advised me, he said it's it's the best program, you should do it, you have to do it. And uh I was debating between both of them because one of them is for the owners, operators of their company, OPM, amazing program. And then the other one was very directly involved with the real estate development. And I was like, before I can be ready to lead this company into a much greater place where it needs to be, I probably should take the development program first, AMDP, get to that top level, and then from there I'll be able to go back and then lead the company to the right place. That's why I took AMDP first. And a lot of people told me to wait five years, three years, and then go back. But my idea was I have two kids, I have a lot of business opportunities development, and I'm busy today. But in five years, I'll be busier. So if I'm gonna do it, I have to do it now. And I took OPM because I wanted to learn for me was to grow, to learn from other business owners, and to understand the general mentality of the founders who have already scaled up, how they pass through these stages, and to be able to create lifelong friends that have the same mentality, mindset, goals in life. I look at it more of a club. That it's a group of amazing talented people in one club, one community that can help each other to grow. You know, and there is a mutual trust already between the OPM community and of course AMDP. So I think once you are in, there is already the level of trust that you have between each other, and it's easier to make a business together.

SPEAKER_00 26:14

Uh, you are starting Unit 1 this weekend. Yes. Um, so I'm not gonna ask you about experience because you're uh you're still uh pre that. But talk to us about some of the cases that you're seeing yourself reading. How is the prep coming along? Have you started reading cases way in advance, or are you now uh trying to catch up?

SPEAKER_01 26:35

No, I'm trying to, of course, obviously with family and business, uh I think that all of us have you know issues with the timing, but I think that the most important thing here is the delegation of time and prioritizing, because that's probably why we are all here, because OPM teaches us this very well. I've read some of the cases, not all of them, but I try to kind of go through generally all the cases and then come back and focus on my weeks. So this week's cases, I'm done. Uh I'm great, I know. Accounting was one of the parts that I wasn't an expert. So that took me a little bit longer than expected. You know, I only started paying attention to the accounting, honestly, when I had to count my money to make sure that the numbers are right. But I understand, I understand now very well that accounting is the language of business, and that's the number one place to focus on to make sure that the numbers are right in the business. So accounting was a bit challenging for me because I come from international relations, politics, history, background. So accounting and math for me was my not-so-strong part. But other than that, I think the readings are very interesting. There are some of them that directly correlates with what I do, and some of them that I have no clue. But that's the purpose. I think to put us into uncomfortable spots to be able to challenge ourselves and learn, and of course, to learn from other groups, other people. I think that's the whole point. But for me, this is a wonderful journey. I love every second of it. I enjoy it. It's an incredible part of my growing. So I think it's just it's just wonderful. But you already passed all of these stages. So what's your opinion on it?

SPEAKER_00 28:31

I think it's beautiful. I think it can feel a little overwhelming when you're preparing, reading all the case studies. But once you get paired with your living group, and every morning you'll have a discussion on what cases are to be read on that particular day. You start recollecting what you had read in the cases. Because I'm pretty sure in a couple days you'll you'll feel, hey, there's so many cases I read. I'm feeling more overwhelmed. But those morning meetings help a lot. And the really lies when you the magic comes alive when you see everyone debating what's in the case material in class, because you'll realize there's no one right way to do things or no one right line of thinking. Everyone has their own perspective, and sometimes you might see very, very passionate uh debates or conversations around that. And I think that's what leadership is about, right? Taking decisions which may not seem appropriate to someone else, but still finding a way to come out um winning with those decisions. And that also helps us understand that there's no one truth in the world, right? Any situation you're in, looked at with so many different perspectives. And maybe m a lot of those perspectives are correct. A lot of those decisions that one would take from the same situation might be different, but may all still end up giving a winning answer.

SPEAKER_01 29:46

You you'll feel that once you uh get part of these uh Yeah, I think I think that's a very important point. A lot of people are very passionate about their perspectives. I know. And especially when you have all eight-type people in the same room, I think it could be a bit overwhelming as well. When everybody's leading their own company their own way, and they are used to getting their employees agree with them. And now they are in a room where you know everybody's leading their own way and everybody has their own companies. Yeah. Yeah. So now you have to. That's gonna be the toughest part.

SPEAKER_00 30:23

Amazing, man. Uh, very excited to hear your takeaways once you're done with the program. You know, we'll be in touch and we'll reconnect. Just in closing.

SPEAKER_01 30:30

I would love to.

SPEAKER_00 30:31

I don't know if you're a big fan of reading or not, but uh curious to know if there's been any book which has influenced the way you think.

SPEAKER_01 30:37

Yes, so there are a couple of books that I really like. One of them is Rockefeller's 38 Letters to His Son. I think that's like a wonderful book that everybody should read. Because it creates this understanding that what goes beyond work as we look at it, because he really highlights the fact that if we don't like the work that we do, we'll be struggling in life. Because not only like monetary, but physically, mentally, because work is what provides us the mental clarity, especially when you like what you do. So you have to be mentally occupied with something that you like to do. But that's one of them. Second, there is a, I think a lot of people read Art of War and The Prince by Machiavelli. These two books I read when I was, I come back to these books probably once every year, but I read them when I was in the university studying international relations. It provided me a sense of understanding how the world leaders, when it comes to leading countries and nations, think because for me, was they would take it and convert it into business. How can this be used in the business? How can this mentality be used in a business? And I liked about uh a lot of psychology books about uh human psychology, behavior, social psychology, uh, to understand uh human behavior, and then um I think that's one of the most important things in business, because if you don't understand that, it's like you're going to a room blindfolded and you have no idea what's going on with all the clues out there. So I think to be able to be successful in anything you do, you have to be very good uh socially, to be able to interact, make friends, because that's the whole point of being into an OPM and other programs is to be able to create uh friendships that can later be like a standing stone to grow and do businesses. So but I like books whenever I have free time, I try to read you know a lot of storytelling as well, because that's what really we do all the time. Everybody's telling their story their own different ways. You know, even if you tell something to your kids or if you talk to your neighbor, your partner, your friend, everybody tells their story. So I think those kind of books interest me. What I find very hard reading reading was literature. For me, it was like very hard. I I couldn't focus. I would read a few pages and then I would get blacked out. But those kind of business books I can read all the time.

SPEAKER_00 33:26

Great. Last question. What about you? What's your f favorite ones? Books, man, dude, I I live for books, I feel. But a couple books which have influenced me a lot. First is Don't Sweat the Small Stuff, It's All Small Stuff by Richard Carlson. That book has given me perspective every time when I've found myself being overwhelmed or sweating over, you know, decisions, waiting for an outcome, going like, hey, I look like an ass when I said that, you know. And I just must that's basically the point. And there's so many different uh examples in the book which help you bring yourself back to the present. And I think that's very important as an entrepreneur because we're always living in the future and the mind is racing. I think uh there's a book I read which finally made me recognize the power of governance and democracy, which is uh why nations fail. Um and I read that, yeah. Unbelievable uh on how you structure an organization using geopolitics as references for that. I think that book changed that way.

SPEAKER_01 34:31

I think um it's a must-read for all the students and international relations. Everybody reads that book. It's a wonderful. I'm glad you found it.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

Yeah, my number one book is Um The Beginning of Infinity. I read that book just before my daughter was born. And the guy who wrote it, David Deutsch, he talks about being rational and optimistic. That's the biggest takeaway, right? He's using science and technology and examples in that. But eventually the human race has progressed because you're optimistic. You are optimistic about your business, your life, and hence you have the willingness to get out of bed every day, work hard for something, you know, invest. I looked up the program at Howard you did last year. It's what$52,000, and you know, you're spending another X number of amount for OPM. That's a lot of money you're spending, but you're optimistic about the takeaways you'll get someday, right? And so that's that's been the baseline for technological progress as well and innovation, and we have to be optimistic. And so I think once I read that book, I just could not stop being more and more positive about everything that the next day has to offer, but more so from a possibility perspective, right? Everything is possible. We just have to ask the right questions, think about it in the right way. Absolutely. And it helps me understand that assumptions can be a two-edged sword. If you have the wrong assumptions in your thinking at a very early stage and your foundation is built on top of that, it could turn into out of cards. Um, so questioning your assumptions is very important because your progress depends on it, your optimism depends on it. Um, my daughter, because my interpretation of the entire book was how am I talking to this little child today? You know, just to get my way. Am I am I saying certain things to get away with the conversation? But that stays with her and her perspective of life builds on top of a sentence I said today. Absolutely. Yeah. Right? Rather than saying something which might take a little more time to explain to a little one. So that book has helped me a lot, and I think that's a book I try to. If I don't read it, I try to listen to podcasts around that book or watch certain clips from it on YouTube. Uh, because it just reminds me of the bigger philosophy. And I'm so sorry I turned this into my interview. So don't ask me that question again on books. No, no.

SPEAKER_01 36:51

But I'll I'll ask you another time for like like your top five books. Like, very nice.

SPEAKER_00 36:57

Great, man. Okay, what would you tell your younger self if you could? That's my last question for you.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

You know, if you could go back 10 years. I would say probably never give up. You're on the right track and keep on moving. You know, if you think that you are walking into a fire, the only way to get out is if you continue walking. So I think for me, for my life, was not giving up. That there was a lot of time that I could walk away, but thanks God I didn't. And it turned out to be the right decision.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

Amazing. Thank you, Javor. Um, I know your OPM starts in two two days, so you need every minute of time that you can get right now to use the we'll be in touch. Thank you again for making the time for this conversation.

SPEAKER_01 37:42

Sounds good, my friend. Talk to you soon. Bye, man. Um have a good one. You too. Bye. Bye.