SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of Beyond the Case, which is a podcast where global leaders from Howard Business School's OPM community join in a personal capacity and they share the real lessons, life principles, mental models that go behind building enduring companies. Today's guest is a co-participant from OPM67, my batchmate. Someone I admire a lot. His name is Rishikesh Pawar. Very, very humble and down-to-earth guy, despite everything that he's achieved in life. And fellow resident from New York City. Rishikesh, it's uh it's a pleasure to have you here.

SPEAKER_01 0:37

Same. It's it's my pleasure to be with you on this podcast. And I mean, I was smiling when I I rarely hear someone saying that someone admires me a lot, but I think we are friends and we are on the we are on the same page, same boat and the same level. But I'm happy to be here and and super uh excited looking forward for this conversation. Thank you. Rishi, how do you introduce yourself and the work you do? I think uh I belong to this planet. So I'm I'm a resident of this planet. I I run a marketing company. So I'm I'm founder CEO of Digital Zone. We are a B2B marketing company. But for me, it's all about human rather than um, you know, explaining ourselves with with the lines of traditional boundaries which we have set. And that just opens up a lot of opportunities and possibilities. So I'm I'm obviously a traditional way. My name is Vishwar, born and raised in India from Pune. I live in New York City, run a B2B company, and got married two years ago, just had a daughter four months ago. So it's it's kind of uh every day is a new experience now.

SPEAKER_00 1:51

Congratulations on being a father. I'm sure the rest is time. Thank you. You know, you must be walking around the clock. Also, you know, your wife um must be um carrying on uh with this journey. So congratulations to the family.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, I mean 99% is all about mothers, right? We play we play a s little role, but that's also important.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Rishi, your profile has a very disciplined picture to it. From what I understand, you're into meditation, weightlifting, yoga, like reading, uh, racing cars, and most recently you've started you you've you've attempted learning how to fly a plane as well. And now you're a new father. So amongst all of these activities and these different sides to your personality, which role do you think has influenced you the most as a founder and as a human being? Because you started off by introducing yourself as a resident of the planet as opposed to the title of your company.

SPEAKER_01 2:50

Yeah, I mean, if you see uh a common theme between all the things, let's say what you mentioned about me or all the things we do, it's about uh learning and and being curious. Right? And and whether it's discipline, whether it's consistency, these all things are key ingredients towards, you know, our goal, if you want to achieve them. And whether it's you, me, or anyone who has achieved uh a little bit or maybe have have achieved their goals in life, I think in some capacity, maybe in different ways, we we all try to do the same things, whether in in form of physical, mental, you know, it all combines together. So I do like a few things in terms of like, let's say, meditation, workout. I I do like reading or maybe consuming content through different channels, mostly videos, but I I read books as well. But deep down, if you look who we are as humans, right? I do feel that um, you know, there is humans basically are people who always try to innovate and and there is always hunger to do better. So learn new things, do better in what we are doing, and that's what I do. I try to, you know, make sure um I I take on new things that that challenges me and keeps me excited because if you try to do the same thing for for years, it becomes boring at some point, and that's a natural human thing to happen. So it's always better to take on new things, fail, most importantly, even if it uh doesn't have to be successful all the time, but uh it keeps me awake. It keeps me it helps me to uh you know wake up with some sort of excitement every day.

SPEAKER_00 4:35

Great. And you touched on failure, which is so critical to the theme of this convoy, and we'll come to that in a bit as well. More importantly, being a father, do you think that has changed how you think about ambition, legacy, and your time?

SPEAKER_01 4:50

I mean, I I keep thinking on it, and a couple of my friends have also asked me about this in the last four months. I honestly it's like it's still very new and fresh. There are so many things going on, and especially like you and me when we are away from family, um and and not in a luxury of having multiple people working at home and people are there to help. So, you know, you and your wife are doing almost everything, right? Running businesses, managing family, doing groceries, cooking, also taking care of the baby. But at at some point, obviously we all uh change, um, especially after becoming parents. And it just for me, I mean, a lot of my friends tell me that you you need to learn to smile and laugh more and and become less serious. And I think I see that happening with my daughter when I spend time after hours, after work hours, especially. You know, you just become a kid with them. And I think uh that's the true true life. So I have changed for sure, but uh I think it'll take some time to sink into it and truly understand what has changed, because four months is still a very short time. And uh as as many of my friends who stay in the same building tell me, it's like, you know, it's a lifelong project. So maybe every every month, every year you learn and and change.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Right. So take us back to before starting your company, Digital Zone. Uh, what kind of a person were you before entrepreneurship and what pushed you towards building something of your own? That's that's a very good question.

SPEAKER_01 6:25

I think so. I'm I'm always uh a person who will take the first step in any given situation. It's whether it's a fun thing or or a challenging thing. And I'm a generous person by nature. So even in back in my school days, I remember uh I was never afraid of trying something new, whether it's on the mischievous side or whether it's on a in a good side as a student. And then many of my friends followed. So in general, people would not take that first step because it is filled with uncertainty. So I was always that that cared because I I don't think about uh what other paid people think about me or what they will have an opinion about the thing I do. And uh that has helped me to become a person or where where I am today. And then, you know, taking people together. I remember uh in my school, there was uh nearby a school, there was this person who used to sell uh what we call as as gola, right? The ice thing. And whenever I used to go to eat after my school, I used to take three, four, five of my friends. I never used to go alone. And and whether I had money or not, uh I used to uh, you know, tell them that I'll pay you later, even if I had no money that day, but my friends were there. So taking people along, sharing the experience, sharing the I would say sharing success is always been my thing. And that has helped me to build the business uh what I have today. Because end of the day, a business is all about people, whether it's on the client side or within the internal organization. And um I I do take some um non-traditional approaches all the time. Um and and that helps me to just learn new things. And um, you know, my parents, uh especially my dad, always believed in me and and never restricted me to do certain things or maybe in uh things in a certain way, right? And that helped me a lot because at the end of the day, uh you are being um not given that freedom to explore, to try new things. Then, you know, your your curious uh part, your you know, your curious part in your brain somewhat loses that capacity. That's what I feel. That that led to, you know, you know, I was I was never super interested in in memorizing books and giving the exams. I do call it a memory test versus learning, right? Because end of the day, exams are structured in a way where you have to remember the things which are written in the book, and then how much you remember, you you have been given marks on that thing, right? It's a memory test versus curiosity trust or a problem-solving test. Um and then I, you know, after after my school, I never did college full-time. I was more curious to see the real life. But I did uh study up to my second year and then third year of my graduation, when I was supposed to give my final exams, I took my friend and went to Simla Kulumanali, which is a hill station in India, and never gave the exam, but never told my parents as well, figured out the things, what to tell them, and that's how I'm a college dropout. I remember in our class in October in Unit 1, um I, while I was answering to one question or maybe sharing my thought, I told that I'm a college dropout. And uh, you know, that's the reason. After the class, I think one of our friends came to me and said, Hey, I I really liked uh you said that because uh, you know, I am I'm a college dropout because I've but I was uh hesitating to say that loud or not. I think you know just being yourself and and uh trying to be who you are uh helped me a lot. And that led to a lot of things in in business, uh, you know, leading people, solving problems, uh understanding, understanding the real problems, listening, you know, that's that's what uh has helped me.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

And then you went to Similar Kulumanali with your friend. Were you concerned at any point about the future prospects? How did you go about convincing yourself that there is a path ahead which you will land on and identify? How did you end up becoming a founder?

SPEAKER_01 10:50

Yeah, so I mean, I'm lucky enough from my school days. I got an opportunity because of my grandfather to be with uh people who are 10, 20, 30 years older than me all the time. So I spent m less time with uh my friends versus more time with people who have really lived real life. And that I think that shaped my opinion about uh traditional way of doing things or becoming successful in life. So I never believed that education, I mean traditional education, reading books and giving exams is the only way. Yes, it's a great way. Many people have been successful, and that's what we are doing now in HPS as well. But that's not the only way, right? I've I've been always a big believer that uh there are millions of ways we can figure out life, and we know maybe 1% of that even today, right? The entire world. It never concerned me. For me, it was like I do things what I like, and that matters me the most because that makes me happy. And when I'm happy, I get great ideas, I get great thoughts. And if you see the things I have done, whether in business or personal life, all those ideas and thoughts came when I was happy. Whether I was, you know, in the gym working out, when I maybe I was dancing in my living room, playing nice music or the songs I like. And that's very important because uh you cannot function or solve problems or lead uh when you're not happy. And happiness comes from doing the things you like to do.

SPEAKER_00 12:26

Very well said. To touch on the part of your grandfather exposing you to a crowd which was a lot more mature than you know your core circle of friends and family, could you stress a little more on what impact that created on you in terms of your mindset, your aspirations, your ability to challenge yourself, maybe?

SPEAKER_01 12:44

Yeah, I think the most important thing I remember um, you know, when I was sitting, I used to sit in that group, and one thing that helped me a lot is just to listen more because when you are sitting with all the adults, right, you cannot talk a lot because they'll not listen, first thing. So so naturally you have to listen to what they are saying. But what I what I realized is, you know, all the concepts we have in mind about people and their image, whether it's through financial, uh financial layer or maybe in um you know professional layer, when you go close and listen, everyone is very similar. And if you open and unwrap each layer, most of the things are very simple and basics, whether it's a human level or technology or business. So I think what I understood is life or maybe doing things in life or becoming successful, or even maybe uh learning a new concept, understanding a new industry is not that difficult as we all think, right? It's just that you have to break things in a very simple way. Try to, like like Professor Dash told us, in order to improve the process, you have to break the process in, you know, um I would say many different parts in the smallest uh size you can, and then realign. So that's how I look at it. That's what I learned actually. That um I don't know why, but then you know, we we have been taught that uh everything is difficult, things are very complex, but the reality is it's not complex. It it's been shown that way. But you unwrap the layer and and go go deep down and check the reality. The the basic things are very simple. It's just that we we try to be at the top five feet or top layer, and when you dig deep, things become very simple.

SPEAKER_00 14:41

Do you ever find yourself questioning um your purpose or anything you're working on, especially in the early days of being an entrepreneur when you don't have a lot of validation, you're building for the future, revenue is still some time out, customers have not yet shown a willingness for the product, right? So in those moments, did you ever find yourself questioning what you were working on? And if yes, how did you keep your mindset stable so as to continue moving forward?

SPEAKER_01 15:08

I think it's a great question. And uh the answer is yes. Because um early in your life, whether it's business, uh maybe job, school, college, because you have not experienced that enough, or maybe it's very early, there are always doubts whether is this the right thing you're doing? Can you do it? Do you belong to this world? All all the type of things, right? And most of us go through challenges, a lot of challenges actually, in the early stage of our things, right? Uh so that's where the doubt and and questions and questions on a purpose, goals, and everything come on. I mean, I remember uh my first five years building digital zone. I have a different story, but um I I came to in this bus I I came in this business accidentally with with with uh and hunger to always build a business, try to solve problems and provide more opportunities to people in form of jobs, learning and everything. But then it turned out to be a complete different thing. So I had to figure out things almost everything on my own. And um first four to five years were challenges all the time. Every day there were new challenges. So yes, I had had uh questions on my ability and um you know whether I'll be able to make it or not. But then I had this belief and confidence on myself, right? It's not about the industry in you are in, it's not about the business you're doing. It's about taking one problem at a time, right? And and trying to solve that uh by breaking it down in in many different simple ways rather than looking at it as a one whole thing. For example, so we we even today we are a bootstrap company. I don't have any investors, whether it's a VCP firm, individual investors, right? Um and to be where we are, uh plus not take money from, let's say, your parents or or you know, not have enough funding, you have to manage cash. And cash flow is a big thing in any founder's or entrepreneurs' uh journey. There have been maybe thousands of times where I have to borrow money to make a payroll, right? Simple thing. Not many people talk about it. But then it when it becomes for three, four, five years, because you're still figuring out things and there are so many uncertainties in business. You come to a point like you just think of giving up and and you know, but then every time you find out a new way to, you know, manage those funds, as simple as that, you go through your your contact list in your phone, see who your friends are, who will help, uh, you know, and all that stuff. So taking one thing at a time, um, and and I think that the the habits or maybe hobbies I have helped a lot, whether it is meditation and uh, you know, workout and and reading and being with, like I told, I I I spent a lot of time with um seniors or adults in my school days, college days, because of my grandfather. That helped a lot because when I used to hear stories about their journey and and challenges, you know, that's again a validation that that this is not uncommon to you. It's not only to you, it's common to everyone, right? And and there are ways to figure out. So you find out ways, and that's like you said, it's just that I mean I still uh read a lot about consciousness and how and where the ideas come from and how you solve problems. Suddenly you're taking a walk and and you get an idea and that's a solution to a problem. Uh that's a bigger, larger discussion. But uh yes, there were thousands of times I doubted myself, but uh belief and and confidence that you can go through it. But at the same time, you have to be honest to yourself, to the team, to the people you're working with, and you have to be transparent enough at times. You cannot just put a makeup and shield and try to show things which are which does not exist. And you know, that helps a lot. And and when you know you're doing doing it honestly, uh, you figure out things and you know, there are always solutions waiting for you.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Thank you. Was there a failure or a setback or a painful lesson that fundamentally changed the way you lead today? Yeah, many.

SPEAKER_01 19:42

I mean, I say this uh to my team that uh failure is common and success is rare. So the things which are common should happen many times or or a lot to you, uh almost daily, right? So yeah, I mean I can I can give uh many examples about failures, whether it's uh failures on day-to-day basis or failures on you know on a larger scale. Um you know, I started this company called Swevin Info Tech a couple of years um before in I think 21-22, right? Uh when when when actually things at digital zone were going good. And obviously when you are first-time founders, founder young, you don't have enough experience about whether to about focus and you know, or you know, how can you manage multiple businesses? And and that started by when I got an email from a person who was actually trying to figure out his new job. Um, and then I thought, yeah, it's a good idea. It's a new industry, and uh maybe I can invest some of my funds from Digital Zone and try to, you know, diversify revenue stream and all that stuff. But over time I realized I gave two, three years. Uh, I didn't give full time, of course, but then I gave uh my time investment and tried to put together a team and see if it works. And tried it for two, three years, right? And it didn't work out. And then at some point, like two years ago, I had to kill it. So I think that was a great lesson for me because uh I do consider that was a you know a failure, and I'm proud of it actually, versus uh I would say ashamed of it, right? Because I learned a lot. First thing I learned is you you cannot run or you cannot be successful in all the things you do, even if you are super successful in one thing, right? And then there is always that there should always be a question of why. Even if you think that let's start a new business, why? Is it about money? How much money? Right? If it's an amount, then how can you earn the same amount in your existing business, right? It's a lot easier to do, or maybe why. You're doing it? Are you doing it maybe just because you have a lot of money and you have to spend it? Or you have a lot of time which you which you don't know how to invest? So I think, you know, getting understanding the right front framework and structure. And then, you know, by that time I understood that it's important to say no to most of the things because you'll get proposals on the way, especially when you're doing good. The world knows, many people know. So, you know, there are a lot of ideas. Ideas are cheap nowadays, execution is harder. And you should not, you know, just follow the path. And uh, I think that failure taught me a lot. But uh, I do, you know, respect everyone's efforts in that journey because everyone on that team gave their honest efforts, tried hard, but end of the day it didn't work out. And at some point when you start a new business, at the maybe what what Amazon taught us is whenever you open up a new venture, it's important to decide when you're going to kill it, the timeline. And most of us, like, you know, don't think about it because we are super optimistic as founders and we think everyone, everything is going to be successful, and we don't think of stopping it. I had that thing in my mind when I started that it's going to be three years max. If it works, great. If it doesn't, we should all be proud that we tried but didn't work and just stop it and move forward. And I think, you know, I think there are a lot of things I learned on the way, but I do appreciate because I feel that it's a it was super important for me to go through that experience in early stage, right? And that that helped me even in my current business, whether it's about launching a new product or coming up with a new team, you know, there we have we have actually said no to many things after that within our current business, and that has helped us to stay focused, aligned, and and always look at what's our goal and what's our North Star.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

Very well said. Rishi, what on your journey then inspired you to consider the OPM program at Harvard? So, like I said, I'm college dropout.

SPEAKER_01 24:00

So, so I learn my things through experience and execution, right? Uh, I think that's that's one of my strengths that you become over time good at execution and and you have a lot of experience, but I wanted the structured way in my life. So, what Harvard helped me, right? This is my second program I did with Harvard, I'm doing it with the Harvard Business School, is all the ambition I have and all the optimism and energy I have, I think uh Harvard helped me to shape me, shape it in a right framework, right? And in a more organized and a structured way, because I think having a right mix of execution and organization in doing things help you a lot. And honestly, I just, you know, the most important thing I learned at HBS is, you know, there are so many things I don't know. We we all, you know, think about the things we know, but it's important to also realize and understand that we only know maybe 1% or less. And there are so many things we don't know. And with people, our friends from different countries, different cultures, different backgrounds, it's important to learn and see how people think, coming from different backgrounds and experience. But but uh the baseline is we all have similar problems. That's a good part of it, right? Uh we at the end of the day, we are humans, no matter we come from a developed world or developing world or underdeveloped world, which color on the skin we have, what background language we speak. But our problems are very similar, and that's what connects us. Harvard uh business school and the program, especially OPM, has taught me this thing, and and that just opens up immense possibilities. The realization of that I don't know a lot helps us or helped me to open my mind to many, many things and and become more curious.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

I'm sure it's not been easy going from being the founder, CEO, the boss man to relearning. It might be quite a humbling experience to be among so many fellow founders as well and business owners. What's been some of your biggest takeaways from the first unit at OPM?

SPEAKER_01 26:13

Yeah, I mean, I look uh when I look at what what did I learn? Rather than going through cases, I try to see um which concepts were super interesting to me, right? Whether, you know, the negotiation exercise we did twice, I believe, right? Going into negotiation, how important it is to, you know, set a target, have an option B, have your own Batna, right, Zopa. And the the super interesting thing which I never thought of, right, when if you're going for and negotiate your life is all about negotiation, whether you're negotiating a salary, negotiating a position deal, uh, or or negotiating with your wife or spouse, right? It's important that how timing is important. So the interesting thing was how people have their favorite times in in a day, whether it's super early morning or late night, there were people we got to know that they only go to a meeting when it comes to negotiation late night or early mornings or before 6 a.m. And that was super interesting because we all lose sight about what importance um mornings, afternoons, and evenings have in our life. And then likewise, like, you know, there are many concepts like our most of our favorite concept was making our making our customer a hero. And that's that that is one of my priority for 2026 as a company this year. And we have made an incredible progress in the last four months, right? Um and and so different things. What I learned from, let's say, friendly fire, um, I think it was about um, you know, uh uh no-fly zone, right? So how how do you create a no-fly zone between departments or people where people know that where to stop and where are the boundaries in order to avoid a collision, right? Or even I think uh even Professor Das, you know, when you're hiring hiring people or hiring a team, hire for future and don't like don't hire people like you because you already have what you have. You need to get more skills, new skills or new mindsets in in the team. So um different concepts like you know, quality of market share versus actual market share, for example, right? It's important we all go beyond, uh we all always go behind uh you know how much market share I have and how much I need to get. But it's important to also look at the quality of market share. So I think these things, whether it's regarding hiring, negotiation, go-to-market, finance, and in general in life, I mean, the last session by Professor Raman, take a shot, was so profound and deep. Even we all were tired after our party day before, but we were super engaged and everyone, you know, I think that was a perfect end to unit one. And and I truly enjoyed about taking a shot in different forms and different ways. So um, I mean, these were my key takeaways. There are many concepts, frameworks, and lessons I have already implemented in my business right away. Um, few of them are actually our top priorities for the year, and uh, I'm seeing the effect of it. So, like I said, I mean, ambition full of energy and execution, mixed up mixed it, you know, mixed well with uh organized way and structured way of doing things and thinking in a framework style uh is is key, and that has helped me a lot in from unit one.

SPEAKER_00 29:48

You've developed a deep interest in defense tech and geopolitics as well, which is not a typical path for the founders that we come across. And so what led to this fascination and why do you think it matters so much to you?

SPEAKER_01 30:02

Yeah, I mean, um I think we all are passionate about a few things in life and uh defense, uh pace, and geopolitics. Um fascinates me because uh I think it's uh it's tough. It's uh, you know, it takes time to understand the true nature how the industry functions. But I think uh that's also the future, right? Because end of the day, as founders or CEOs, in some way we are also trying to um make an impact, whether it's on our team, on our industry, within our friend circle or trying to, you know, prove things. And uh the reason why we like to be CEOs and founders is also the control, right? We like to have uh control in our hands. And I think if you look at these things, whether it's space, energy, defense, or or geopolitics, that's that gives, I mean, that's an opportunity where you can actually make a larger impact. And I think defense is very interesting because uh because technological uh progress we have made in the last couple of decades, things are thing things have become very fascinating. And like we learned in our cases, like uh the globalization case, the future wars are most likely going to be technical wars versus the actual military wars, right? And you know, if you if you mix hardware with uh software, even in defense, things have become smaller and smaller in terms of equipment, but the impact is larger. So you compare uh a traditional missile to a drone today. You know, we are all seeing what's happening between Russia and Ukraine and then recent the US and Iran, and how the smaller equipment are having a larger impact and how technology is playing a key key role. Space is interesting, you know, till today or maybe recent uh years, we all saw space as just a curious thing to see what's beyond Earth and how many stars and how many galaxies and and how what what is universe? But if you look at uh if you relate to business, what what's happening because of Elon Musk, uh, you know, all the AI revolution, space is going to be the next real estate, right? Uh because now we are all seeing and hearing that most likely the data centers will will go in space. And then when you when you have one thing which is going to power logistics on this planet, then maybe data centers can go up to it, can become many different things. So you you you'll you'll be surprised to see the things what we have today on on land. In in coming decades, uh you'll see the things in the space in and around earth, whether it's data centers, manufacturing units, and and you might see even offices in space uh which are close by you, you know, Earth. I think I was I was also, you know, so I'm reading this book, uh, Who Built the Moon? Right? Uh and uh recent uh um mission by NASA which landed uh which which which sent the astronaut around the moon, right? And they're exploring that if we have a manufacturing unit on the moon in future, maybe with the the gravity, you can actually push things from the moon and they'll they'll drop on Earth. And how you know how you can achieve scale, how less expensive it will be to manufacture things in in the moon and send it to Earth. So there are a lot of interesting things going to happen in the future in space. It's not going to be only about stars, galaxies, asteroids. And I think geopolitics. Geopolitics is is an important thing. That's how that actually dictates, you know, our life in many ways, whether it's policies, rules, and and and all the you know financial things that happen in and around us. So you know, and and my interest is because it has a larger scale. So after Digital Zone, like my goal is to, you know, have an exit, sell the business in the next three, five years. I'm very open about it. My team knows it, my friends know uh know about it. Um maybe I'll take a break for like a year or two, not to enjoy, but then maybe take a fellowship in one of the well-known labs, not very well-known, but then well-known to the community, and and do a fellowship around these topics, right? To go deep on defense space or maybe the the financial world, which is related to. So I do follow Peter Thiel and the book uh he wrote, Zero to one, which talks about creating monopolies versus uh creating products, right, as a business. And and in order to create a long-lasting, impactful business, what we see, let's say, in the top five or top tens of the world, you need to spend time learning uh and going deep. Um, you know, you can come up with a new business idea and make it work, and you can reach a couple of millions in revenue. But in order to achieve the billions and trillions, you also need to take a break, go back to the drawing room, learn, go back to school again, uh, and and go deep. And I think going deep is also rare. A lot of us try to, uh, or maybe in in general, people try to learn things at uh at the top layer. But if you look at the people you know we follow today, whether it's Elon, Jeff Bezos, or what's happening with OpenAI, Cloud, Perplexity, Perplexity is a great example. Um you know, the he took, I think he took a break for four or five years after before he started Perplexity. And and taking a break in the sense you need to dedicate time to learn, go deep understanding technologies and frameworks and how things function. It's not easy to take on Google and start Perplexity, but then everything is possible. Uh it's just that you need to have the depth.

SPEAKER_00 36:11

Very well said. Um in closing, if you could sit down with the version of yourself that's launching Digital Zone in 2014. Before the growth, before HPS, before becoming a parent. What advice would you give him?

SPEAKER_01 36:27

Well, I mean, in my twenties, I was always uh seeking for validation um and obviously doing things from financial motivation and all the things what we all do. But uh today obviously based on some life experience we think differently. I would I would tell myself is um I would maybe two things. Um stop stop seeking certainty. I think before even you take an action. There is there is no thing such as uh certainty in life. Everything is so fluid and uncertain, and we think a lot. So I would I would you know definitely say you know go go away from thinking and seeking uncertainty before even you take first step or an action. And the second thing I think um um we all I mean I I specifically used to think a lot about clarity, but I I do believe that uh clarity comes from doing things or clarity comes from movement, not overthinking. Right? So I would I would say that you know, just do just start doing the things. You'll you'll get you'll figure out things, there there will be clarity on the way, and that's how life evolves. Um, you know. Uh if if you look at ourselves, I mean, you know, our first couple of months on this planet versus today, there there has been a lot of things that a lot of things have changed, evolved, uh which we never dreamt of. So, you know, just just uh start doing things, take that first step, take that shot, like Professor Raman said, and and uh you'll get clarity. You'll you'll figure out uh many meanings on this way.

SPEAKER_00 38:15

Right. Thanks, Sishi. Very, very insightful conversation. I think you've been very transparent and forthcoming. So much appreciate this on a working weekday.

SPEAKER_01 38:24

Um Thank you so much. I hope it was not boring and I appreciate you taking time and and even inviting me to, you know, have this conversation. And um, you know, I I would like to mention, and I don't know if you're going to have this on the recorded version, but uh, you know, you took this shot of starting the series and gave uh opportunity to me and many of our friends to come on this place because honestly, we all like to talk and and get the get get our thoughts across. But uh this is my first podcast. Many people reach out like in general to talk about things. But then I uh I do think I I'm still learning. I don't know many things, so I don't want to go and start giving advices. Uh I'm just 33. Uh I do want to live 90 years minimum, so there is enough time for me to give advice later in my life. But you know, I think it's about connection. And and I would like to thank you specifically because uh this is a platform you give to all of us to express ourselves, get to know each other, and and whenever I'm free, I do listen to our your episodes, uh especially from our friends. And it's funny, it's interesting, it's learning. And you took that shot. So, you know, on on behalf of the entire OPM67, I would take this moment and say thank you to you. And I hope uh you get to learn a lot, and obviously you have fun. That goes to you, your business, your family, and to all of us.

SPEAKER_00 39:56

Thank you, Rishi. That's very kind of you, very thoughtful. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 40:00

All right.

SPEAKER_00 40:01

Be well. All right, take care. Bye bye.