SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of Beyond the Case, which is a podcast where global leaders from Harvard Business School's OPM community join in a personal capacity to share the real decisions, life lessons, mental models which go behind building enduring companies. It's a privilege for me to speak to so many different personalities. Today, I have the privilege of speaking with Lewis Ho. He's going to be joining my cohort for Unit 2 of OPM in November. I've never spoken to Lewis before. This is the first time we are meeting as well. So, Lewis, it's a pleasure to have you here. And for my benefit and for the listeners' benefit, could you please introduce yourself, your background, your business?

SPEAKER_00 0:42

Thank you. Thank you. Also very nice to meet you and also thanks for having me here. So uh my name is Lewis Ho. I'm uh originally from uh Coal 65, so uh very nice to be Jeffrey Lewin. Uh I was a lawyer by training, so I've been a lawyer for about 25 years now. And then I only work in a law firm, you know, and may partner. So originally my life is quite boring, right? But at the time of COVID, I suddenly have a chance to find my company, which is a robot company to start with. And my robot is actually being used to do disinfection, to fight for the world, uh, fight for the COVID. So uh this kind of set me from being a very boring, reserves lawyer, and then become an entrepreneur. And so my entrepreneurship journey started. And I think that is the reason why I'm really interested to learn from the peers, from all other entrepreneurs all of the world. And that's why I decided to join OPM. We try to learn from the others. So that's my background.

SPEAKER_01 1:45

Yeah. Lewis, when you were a lawyer, what was your definition of success or growth like? And how has that definition maybe changed today that you're an entrepreneur?

SPEAKER_00 1:56

Yeah. So when I was a young associate, of course, I tried hard to actually make pun as quickly as possible, in particular in some big law firm called, you know, City Firm, which is the big firm in London. So I really tried hard, worked very hard, and I also moved from Hong Kong to Shanghai in order to make a good progression. So I actually did it within 10 years of my associate time. Then I made partners in one of the major law firms, Simmons ⁇ Simmons, in London, which I feel like I got success. But then afterwards, I feel like it's only part of the job because lawyer or even partner within the law firm is more like a businessman. So instead of really having a lot of you know intellectual challenging, actually it's more like managing the operation, but in a very simple sense. I never got a chance to actually work outside law firm in a corporate or even find my own company.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

So all these are kind of in unimaginable in the time when I was and uh you spent decades advising life science and technology companies on their most valuable assets. You were part of boardrooms and uh transactions as well, where I believe you were involved on the MA side.

SPEAKER_00 3:13

Yes, I do also MA and also IPO, you know. So I basically cover almost everything within the area of law given my experience. Um, but surely I'm really like an expert in a very narrow field. I never have a chance to actually really understand what business really looks like because I only work within a small vacuum of the legal world.

SPEAKER_01 3:36

And so while you were working on these IPO companies, MA transactions, what did you learn about the people who were building these companies as opposed to the people who are advising them? What is different between the two personalities?

SPEAKER_00 3:49

I think there was a big gap between that because as a lawyer, I mean, what we focus on is risks, right? We always remind our client what are the major legal risks. And honestly speaking, as a lawyer, by nature, they are vis-a-verse. That means they would keep telling people, don't do this, right? Because there are risks and whatever. Which is very natural, right? So that's why when I really advising clients on, I always feel the tension is like, we are trying to pull the client off the deal, don't do this, really don't start something really risky and whatever. So this is kind of my nature of work, which I would say is actually quite silly when I now become an entrepreneur. When I really look back on my lawyer's life, I do see lawyer or the legal solution doesn't mean everything in the business world.

SPEAKER_01 4:42

Most people end up spending their entire career protecting one identity that they've built. Right. And over your career, you've moved from being an advisor as a lawyer to now being a builder and an entrepreneur at Avalon Sterry Tech. How do you know if it is time to reinvent and to leave the safety of being the lawyer?

SPEAKER_00 5:06

Good question. I think in some ways a bit of the midlife crisis, right? This when you really become a partner of a law firm for like 10 years. You probably start looking for something a bit deeper in terms of what's the meaning in life. Because as I just mentioned, being a lawyer, you probably know part of the story. I keep telling my clients that I actually don't know what happened before the termsheet was drafted. So those actual negotiations, I was not part of it. I only received the termsheet, then I based on the termsheet, draft the agreement, negotiate the agreement. But do I actually understand the business? Do I actually know how the JV operate? I have no clue.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

What surprised you the most when you crossed into entrepreneurship? What did the what did the founder Lewis learn that the lawyer Lewis could never have known?

SPEAKER_00 6:00

I think being a founder, I certainly feel like there are on one hand, there's more freedom of this world, of the business world, to which you can do a lot of the things which as a lawyer I never thought of. Okay. But on the other hand, I also need to make myself grounded. So just don't fly too high. So I think that balance is something I never experienced as a lawyer, or I never can imagine it.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

And do you think it's made you a better lawyer now? Now that you've also been an entrepreneur, you've tried to see how you can stay on the legal side of things while, you know, being comfortable with risk?

SPEAKER_00 6:40

Yeah, I think I mean after I've been an entrepreneur, I actually make me become a better lawyer because now I can talk in the same language, in the same mindset as my founded clients. So after I become an entrepreneur, actually I got more clients, or actually I got lots of friends which just come to me saying, Well, I like your advice. Can I just call with you? I don't need you to write me like five pages memo. What I need is just a phone call. I need your judgment.

SPEAKER_01 7:12

And uh your company, Avalon SteadyTech, has recently raised funding from Softbank Robotics. Is that the same as the SoftBank you we hear about? Is that an arm of the Soft Bank?

SPEAKER_00 7:25

So Soft Bank Robotics is the direct subsidiary of Softbank Corp, which is a Japanese company everybody knows. It's a very interesting company. Uh originally they have three shareholders, uh Masa, which is the Japanese founder, and then uh Jet Ma, which is the owner of uh Alibaba, and then uh Jerry Ko, which is the uh owner of uh the uh Taiwanese uh biggest, you know, make you know, manufacturers of uh phone, you know, things like that. So it's actually a very big company, and then they have the mission to actually develop the best you know robot, you know, from really 10 years before.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

So it's really one of the you know most uh insightful companies which I ever were you targeting them as an investor, or did chance just happen and they landed up on your radar and on your cap table?

SPEAKER_00 8:18

Yeah, I think it's actually by accident because when I know them is I actually know their sales team in Hong Kong. At the time they have their first robot just came out, which is a vacuum cleaning robot. At the time of COVID, you know, vacuum cleaning definitely is not on high priority. So they're struggling. And then they need to actually find someone which can do disinfection, which is spraying chemical out. But that technology is a combination of engineering and also biochemistry, because you need to know what type of disinfection you can put in, what are the particle size. It's actually a lot of technology on. And my company, it happens to be a biotech company which specializes in this, in killing viruses and then doing a disinfection. That's why at the first start, we actually help them to re-engineer their own robot, which is called RISC, and then we become a two-in-one robot, which is called RISC Gambit, which can do both vacuum cleaning and disinfection in one combined unit.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

What skills do you think you had to evolve into now that your role has transitioned to that being a C?

SPEAKER_00 9:26

First of all, I need to have my own lawyer. As a CEO with the head, I can't be my own lawyer. So the first thing I need to do is actually I need to hire my own lawyers, and I do need to actually negotiate with my lawyer, even though sometimes, honestly speaking, I feel like I know more the legal stuff than her, but I still would need to rely on her to give me advice, which helped me. I mean, the first takeaway is you can't be everyone. You can't be everything. You can only focus on one particular role at a particular point of time. But then, of course, you can do different projects. But each project, you do need to find your own sweet spots. Don't mix it up.

SPEAKER_01 10:06

And now you've you've also uh started on with a new chapter in your life with LexGuard AI. What is LexGuard? Can you talk about that?

SPEAKER_00 10:15

Yeah. I think I after I joined OPM, I think there's a lot of chance for me to do the self-reflection about what's going on in my life, what's the history, you know. So when I distill back, I do feel like I actually have a feeling legal, of course. Then I think uh the other is on biotech. And the third one is actually on AI, to which I feel like this is the future of almost everything. So I try to think about how I can combine all my expertise into a product or let's say in a company, I feel like the legal AI is something that I can work on. So since then, I started working on a company, in particular focus on AI governance, which is right now so many people are talking about AI adoption, which of course is the trend. But there is a lot of risk when we try to adopt AI without much thinking. So I try to guide company through the processes when you adopt AI. How are you going to manage the risk? How you're going to make sure that your employee or even your AI vendor do not steal your company away from. And also you will have a sustainable growth in the future, which is something I really key on. That's why I found a company which focused on this end.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

So now your bio includes lawyer, founder, CEO, AI strategist, and also an operator. Do you still think about yourself through these titles or have you moved your identity beyond the labels?

SPEAKER_00 11:51

Well, I think I do have a different identity comfort now. I mean, before, I really think I'm a lawyer. I'm proud of being a lawyer. So that's why in some way I'm being trapped by this identity. Because in this identity, as you said, it's more risk averse, don't take risks, keep having a very conservative view about how business operates. But then when I start becoming an entrepreneur, I feel like the world is actually much bigger, much more freedom. So then, as I said, for different roles, for different company, I do take different approach. So I really enjoy switching my identity from one to the other. And I really feel like this flesher lifestyle really suited me at the moment.

SPEAKER_01 12:39

And during this transition, you know, you've had so many different uh roles you've gone through. What brought you to OPM and why did you feel like despite having so much exposure in your career, you still had to go back to school to reinvent yourself once again?

SPEAKER_00 12:56

Very good question. I think when I found my company, Ephelon Studio, is at the time of COVID. Honestly speaking, the company grew tremendously in the last week. I make a lot of success. I also have a lot of opportunity forming a jump venture with MTR, the subway in Hong Kong. I think a jump venture investment from South End Robotics, for me, is of course a big success. But on the other hand, I do see that in founding these companies, I make a lot of mistakes because the growth is so quickly in terms of HR. I just feel like I actually know nothing about founding a company. So that's why I really want to go back to school to unlearn what I made, the mistake, and then to relearn what we can. So that's why I researched and I found really OPM is the best program for me. That's why I'm really glad that I joined the program. I now have a lot of entrepreneurs all around the world which they can share, not just their success, but their failures in that, you know, company formation and also the journey, which I actually learned more from. You know, so I I'm really glad that I signed up for this group.

SPEAKER_01 14:05

On this podcast, we like to talk more about failures and successes. And you you touched on that. Without giving away too much, if you're comfortable talking about some of the failures that you've gone through and how you had to come out of it and you know how that changed your perspective of what not to do in the future or what to do better.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

Could you talk about such instances? Sure, sure. I think when at the time of COVID, because our robot is in such a high demand, that's why we're really ambitious. We want to build the best robot in the world. I mean, the robot that we did is, I mean, first of all, is moving around within a subway station. And then later on, we take the challenge to actually build a robot uh which can work around within, you know, the aircraft cabinet, which as you know is very narrow and a lot of challenges moving around. But we talk about a challenge, but the challenge is actually bigger than we thought. Even the whole engineering team tried all their best. I mean, it's still a lot of challenges. So looking back, I think if I got a second chance, I probably would try to work with other companies, how to develop the robot because it's such a big RD expenses, time, pressure, everything that you need to put in. And then you the more money you raise, actually, you know, make your business, you know. So it doesn't make sense. So that's why I think first takeaway is before or when you start your company, I think you do need to have your own business model created. And then you can't really just go along, try to pivot. Because if that's the case, it would be too risky in terms of you know burning your capital. So I think this is a back lesson learned for me. And I hope that you know this is something which we share within our community. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 15:53

What were some of your bigger takeaways from Unit 1 at OPM when you think about leadership, growth, or you know, in your case, reinvention?

SPEAKER_00 16:03

Yeah, I think unit one is actually quite a cultural shock for me because, first of all, I never studied business at all. So I mean, reading all these cases honestly at the time, I'm still not using AI. So reading pages by pages, you know, and then don't really understand the terminology, even the financial model calculation, it gives me a hard time. But then the more big challenge is about the cultural shock. Because we have about 180 students over the world, all entrepreneurs, or have big egos, honestly speaking. So when all these big ego people sit together, stay three weeks together, stay in the same term, you can imagine what happened. I think all this different way of talking, the culture, you know, people from different continents, let's say from South America, from Africa, is totally new for me as a nation. So I think all this is really good learning for me and then how to make me feel like as a Hong Kong local startup, now become a global. But then the look cultural shot, I think that is something which I really are.

SPEAKER_01 17:07

Are there any books that you've read which have influenced you uh or the way that you think that you want to talk about?

SPEAKER_00 17:13

I think there's a lot of materials which I read and I really find it quite eye-opening. I mean, like Professor Das, there's a lot of you know, lecture which I mean is still validly in member. I think there is one particular lesson by Professor Das, which he talks about a case which a company was invested by SoftBank. And then there was some discussion as to the behavior of the company after investment by SoftBank. And then he keeps talking about his theory, but then a few of our classmates she raised their hand and challenged him, say, hey, my company was invested by Softbank, it doesn't look like what you said. So at the end of the day, I mean, professor just keeps saying, hey, you know what? If I really know what's happening, I'm not going to teach. I should be a founder. And everybody laughed, of course, because his path is starts. But then you remember, I mean, OPM is such a class to which we are there to actually come and challenge. We're not just come on, say, sit, learn, and just like it's Lomos do. So which why I really feel like OPM is such a special class. Even like the professor really loves us because they can learn a lot. They can actually make cases from all our companies. So this is a really interesting experience for me.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

What advice you would you give to someone who's afraid to live, to leave an identity that they've outgrown?

SPEAKER_00 18:31

I think at this point of time, even in particular in the AI adoption world, nothing can hold steady. Right? Business, you know, for three generations, they can collapse. Because, I mean, all these small, you know, newcomers which they use AI probably can take over your market share within nights. So, I mean, in that case, don't feel like you've been trapped because maybe you are family business for three generations, you feel like I need to do this, otherwise nobody takes care. But then I think you do need to find your own identity, even though you need to work in your family business. But still, you can do your stuff. Beyond and don't think about, you know, I need to do things on full time. Because for me, I work on full on, that is full time.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

So I got free full time job right now. Amazing, Lewis. Thank you. Thank you for taking the time today. Uh, I think it's been a pleasure for me to learn more about you, and I'm sure everyone listening will feel the same way. So appreciate this a lot, Lewis. Thank you. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

Yeah.