SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of Beyond the Case. This is a podcast where global leaders from Howard Business School's OPM community join in a personal capacity to share the real lessons, life principles, mental models that go behind building enduring companies. And I think the the podcast is so powerful because every guest on this podcast is a business leader who's gone through a lot of growing pains. They've learned lessons the hard way and they come and talk about it openly on this show. They've then built companies which span across multiple countries and continents as well. And they bring in their learnings from all these different cultures, different geographies to share the learnings with us. And in that capacity, our guest today is Joe. Joe, it's a pleasure to have you here. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 0:51

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for having me. You know, I love the I love the idea of the podcast. Like you said, I think it's very powerful to be able to, you know, to share, to share experiences, uh and and you know, hopefully bring something to the table in terms of impact. And if if you know one experience can help the other person somehow, it's it's you know, that's that's powerful. So happy to be here.

SPEAKER_00 1:16

Yeah, Joe. Joe, how do you introduce yourself for the listeners? What do you do professionally? Talk a little bit about yourself.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

Well, yeah, uh uh the best way I can introduce myself is to say that I'm a serial entrepreneur. I've I've worked most of my life, I've worked in in two different main sectors. So the first sector I was acquainted with and start loving was became also a passion of mine, which is the music sector. So music and entertainment. And the second sector is the professional, uh, professional services and and focused more on human capital, where we we have it's basically a 360 HR company, uh group company, which from the beginning is my parents' company, so it's a family business. And I've been working in those two sectors for let's say around 20, 25 years, uh 25 years in the music sector, 20 years in in the HR sector. And uh uh uh throughout throughout these years, I also started other businesses. Uh so I have one business in in financial, so in fintech, one business in fintech, and um and and I've started other businesses. Some some have gone good, some have gone bad, which is the life cycle of of entrepreneurship, I mean I can say. But it it's it it mostly it's mostly around services. I've I've never started something that is like uh production or or something like that. It's been more around services. And uh five years ago I started investing as well as a business angel, different uh different ventures because I I basically understood that you know I I I didn't have all the time in the world, I didn't have all the energy in the world. Uh I had experience, and uh there's a lot of bright people out there that have great ideas that can do some of the stuff that I come to because you you also realize growing up that you don't have all the time in the world and and that you don't necessarily have to do everything, right? So uh and and I started enjoying that as well. And and now I have a portfolio of of 15 companies maybe in different in different uh in different branches and different lines that that are not mine necessarily, but where I maybe see some kind of of potential synergies into and especially uh a global growth potential. And that's a little bit where where I'm investing today. Um yeah, that that's you know, in short, that that's how I can introduce myself. So entrepreneur, uh uh and an investor, and uh today also do a lot of board work. So my I'm on the board of a of a bank in uh in the DRC, so I'm I'm half Swedish, half Congolese. It's also good to know. So I and I've I've been between both countries my entire life. So there's a lot of of Swedish and a lot of Congolese experience and life experience, but also professional experience.

SPEAKER_00 4:10

Great, wonderful. Thank you for that very thorough uh background on yourself. But take us back to your early years. Are there any experiences from your early life that still influence how you go about your business dealings today, how you go about your experiences and decision making today?

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Uh yeah, I think so. I am someone that believes that the handshake is still something that is powerful. You know, that's how we started when we were younger. You know, we didn't know anything about contracts, we didn't know anything about uh a lot of stuff. So it was very much trust, gut feeling, handshakes. So so even today, I mean, when I'm when I do take decisions, you know, I I try to listen to my inner self. I try to listen to my guts. And, you know, I think it's a lot about falling in love, falling in love with with the with the idea, falling in love with the product, falling in love with, you know, uh um the the the person selling you the idea somehow, right? So and that's probably something I have from my music years. So I I used to be a musician, I used to be a rapper, so I couldn't sing, but uh fortunately there was rap. So I I could express myself in rapping and songwriting. So it was very much, you know, you knew you had a hit when you could hear, you could hear the hits because you each part of your of your body was telling you, okay, this is a hit, this is a song, and you fall in love with the song, and that's a little bit how I've done my business as well.

SPEAKER_00 5:39

And your your uh music recording company w has won two Grammys as well, correct?

SPEAKER_01 5:44

Yes, exactly, exactly. So uh we won two Grammys as a publisher, so so basically our songwriters wrote the songs that won the Grammys.

SPEAKER_00 5:54

What do you think is so unique about rapping that makes it so loved everywhere, world over? Right? I grew up in India. I didn't understand most of the lyrics of some rap songs in the West, but I love the tunes and you know I would find myself humming them without knowing what I'm what I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:09

As an artist, you think it is.

SPEAKER_01 6:12

Yeah. It's funny because when when when when I started rapping early 90s, you know, music, people, music lovers and music people were, you know, saying that it was just a phase, that it was just a trend, the phase, that you know, it started community-based, and people thought, yeah, but it's just gonna stay within the community. It's really not gonna cross over, it's not gonna become big. And you know, fast forward to the thousands, hip-hop and rapping became the pop of of that time, of that period. And today, rapping is just as as as common in every household as as as as rock, right? Or or as as as as any other type of popular music in the world. Why it is like that, it's a good question. I think it's I think it has to do a lot with feelings. Even though you don't understand the lyrics, but you like you said, you understand the the flow, you you listen to the voice, you you you you know, it might be that you feel some kind of struggle, or you feel you feel some kind of emotional connection, or you know, it it it it um it or it creates or it wakes up some kind of emotion, uh the the rapping that that you know it it makes you it makes you go with it. And and obviously the the beats and everything, or you know, it's groovy, uh it's easy to follow. So I think it's more about the emotional connection you have, which which made it, you know, uh, which made it popular because it it was it was raw. And rapping is very raw. And at the same time, if you do listen to the lyrics, most of the rapping, I wouldn't say that today's rap is is is like that, but at least, you know, the the beginning of rap and and throughout the first two decades, I would say, of rap, rap was very much connected to poetry. So so so you know, the the better your lyrics are, the more you can you can rhyme, the the the the more truth you put into your lyrics gives it some kind of raw and poetic feeling. So that that's that's my answer to you. That would be my answer. And why I love rap, for example.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

Thank you. As an entrepreneur, has there ever been a moment when you questioned your journey on your path as an entrepreneur? And if yes, then how did you keep yourself going?

SPEAKER_01 8:37

Many times, many times over. You know, I I think it's like, I don't know if if it's like that with you as well or or others, but you know, it's like it comes in phases when when like I don't know, each each third or each fifth year, you tell yourself, why am I doing this? Why, why? I could just, you know, have a salary, work from nine to five, go back home and live my life, right? Why, why do I why do I keep like hurting myself so much? Am I a masochist or something? Do I like to get hurt? You know, um, but then at the same time, I believe that entrepreneurs have this will of thinking out of the box, of, of taking on challenges, uh, on on on you know on not backing off. It's funny because like my brother told me, Joe, you you like you know, you're like a dog sometimes. I mean, when you see a bone, you that you just you just chew on the bone and you don't want to let go. You're like a pit pull. And and I think that that's a lot, you know, it has to do with your your mental. It's like, I wanna wanna solve this problem. I want to solve this problem, and I know I can do it. And if I can't do it, I need to make sure I get someone that can do it, right? So I think it's all about it's very much about solving problems. But then yeah, you get tired. I mean, like, I've I've watched sometimes, even today, it happens to me. I'm like, because I've I've been an entrepreneur for almost all of all my professional life. I would say, yeah, most of my professional life, I've been an entrepreneur. But sometimes I'm like, yeah, I I I wonder if you know if I would apply to this job, if if someone would take me. This job sounds interesting. Should should I maybe apply to it and just you know see what happens? So so you have those moments where you are, it's not about that you doubt in yourself. I don't think so. Is it's just about you know, asking yourself if you you you still want to do this, or if if you you ask yourself, you know, if I had chosen this path, how would my life be? Right. And then you go back to your reality where you tell yourself, you know, would would I would I would I accept having a boss? Would I would I uh would would I be comfortable doing this nine to five and just doing one thing? Uh and and and you know, do I what do I really love? Then then and and and then you go back to the fact that yeah, I love being an entrepreneur, I I like creating, I like innovating, I like solving problems, and and I like to have this control that you know the the decisions that I make are the things that are making this movie, right? And and I have this freedom of, you know, if I do not, I mean, at least in a in a later stage of the entrepreneurship, it's like, you know, if if I don't, if I choose not to work, I won't work, right? So I mean, like, or or if in your younger days as an entrepreneur, you can do it. I mean, you can choose not to go to work one day, but you know also how much you will lose if you do not work, right? But it's it's this freedom of of being able to do what you want, actually. I think that's yeah, but yeah, many times, many times over I've asked myself, why am I doing this?

SPEAKER_00 11:54

What's one common piece of business advice that people give and you disagree with? Good question. Good question.

SPEAKER_01 12:01

I think I think in the beginning I was like starting to agreeing with it because it's the it was resonating with me, and it's this life, how do you call it, uh, life work balance. Today I don't agree with the life work balance. Why? Because I I was in a session with a guy that it was like an executive uh uh workshop, and and this the guy said, you know, this there's no such thing as life work balance. And everybody was like, oh, because everybody talks about life work balance and so on and so forth, and you know, the trinity of of you know, work, life, and then yourself or work, life, spiritual, whatever you want. And he was like, There's nothing like there's nothing, there's no such thing as work-life balance because there's only one thing, there's life. You know, so I start thinking about what he said, and I was like, it's true. I mean, it's life. And then it's uh it's about how you choose and how you prioritize your life. But life is life. So there's no such thing as life work balance. So now I now this is this this has become my mantra. Maybe my wife is not gonna be happy with it, but that's it, right? It's just life. I mean, if if if I need to work 16 days in the in uh 16 hours in a day, I will do it. But then at the same time, you know, I I might take two days off and be with my kids. I think it's more about focusing, focusing on the now, right? So if you are with your kids, focus on your kids, focus on that time. If you are with your family, your wife, your parents, whatever, you focused on that time and you try to push the other one, the the other stuff away, see them as a distraction. And if you and if you're working, you do the same thing, you focus on that. I think that's the way, a little bit like you, you when you work with a project, right? So you got several different stuff within a project. And to be able to be a very good project manager, you gotta be able to focus and prioritize. And and that's how you actually get to live or to have a life that you are, that you might be, or at at the end, at least at the end of your life, you will tell yourself, I've done good. I've done okay. My life has been good. Now I now I can sleep.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

At what point did you decide to pursue the OPM program at Howard Business School? And how did you select this program out of everything else that's out there?

SPEAKER_01 14:19

Yeah, so so so I I I started thinking, so I think it was around around 2000 and no, 2019, 2018, 19. I started thinking about doing an MBA because I was like, I had I had several years of experience, uh, I had I had grounds and operational knowledge, but I wanted somehow to feel and confirm to myself, uh, but also make sure I had the right tools to bring the business forward. I felt that I I I needed to go back to school, basically. So I was I was started looking at I started looking at MBAs and and and uh obviously I I looked at I looked at several schools, several different continents. And then my CFO at the time, he started an MBA and and an executive MBA in in one at one school in, I think it was Warwick or something like that, in the UK. And and so we were talking, I was like, oh, it's great that you you did it. And I told him, listen, I want to do the same. And he's the one who told me, he told me, listen, Joe, you know what? I think you should do something else than MBA. I think you should do an executive program. Instead of an executive MBA, you should do an executive program that that that where, you know, because I feel that you have more seniority, it would, it would, it would be better for you to do so. And I had skimmed through HBS different programs. And I and there was a friend of mine who had done uh advanced management program, AMP, who said I would it it was great, it was good, but it was more for executives. So when I so when I when I actually read OPM and understood that OPM was a was focused or was you know was for owners of businesses, that's what drew me, or you know, that's what drew me to it. Because it was about it was you you got things, you got the it was a it was about getting the education, but with this ownership perspective, which was exactly where I was. And and but it it still took me like two years to apply because you know, because of life and because of work, it took two means two years to apply until I finally I finally went to like an information session. I I uh um and then after the information session, I talked to the to the program manager who also talked to me about the about the content, about the people, about the all the value add it could bring, and the fact that, you know, it wasn't like it it the way it was built was also very interesting. That it was built in units, you had unit one, two, three, and the idea behind it was that you know, after each unit, you would go and implement it in your business and then come back. So I I also liked the way it was built, and and this is why I chose OPM. And and it's something that I believe that it's actually the best investment that I've done in my life. In my life.

SPEAKER_00 17:22

Phenomenal. I do agree with you that being surrounded by a cohort of business owners brings out a different quality of conversation. Exactly. I think it's very personal for each one of us, right? All the all the gains, of course, you know, are good, but all the I think for every failure that you go through, every learning curve you go through, right, it's very personal as well out there. The blame stops with you as well. Yeah. And so the the quality of conversations that come out being in a room surrounded by such individuals who are willing to put everything on the line, not just once, but over and over, like yourself. You're a serial entrepreneur, you said at the start. Phenomenal.

SPEAKER_01 18:00

Yeah, but it's like, I mean, and it's like you said, like it's not only business owners, but business owners from different sectors, from different parts of the world, uh, some younger, some older, but each and everyone is there to learn, right? So each and everyone becomes a student. So you you can be you can be sitting beside someone who has a business who is like 10 times bigger than yours. But that person is learning the same way you are learning. That person that person is listening to your answers, your reflections. So it it's it's a very humbling experience, but also at the same at the same time, one of the best learning experiences you can have because it has all these mixed sources and and the fact that it it also is a community when you're done, when you finished. You you are in this community and you continue to learn from each other, that's very powerful. Very powerful.

SPEAKER_00 19:01

You did the OPM program about uh 10 cohorts ago. I don't know how many years ago that was. Was that five?

SPEAKER_01 19:07

I don't even know how many cohorts there are left, but I was 59. 59, yeah. What year was that? So we started in 2001. We were actually one of the first, I think we were we were the second online cohort. So we did a full online unit. The first unit was online, completely online. So that was 2001, and we finished in 2023.

SPEAKER_00 19:29

Oh, you mean 22?

SPEAKER_01 19:30

2021 and 23, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

Okay. Are there any cases you remember from your three units that uh still come to you on an ongoing basis?

SPEAKER_01 19:40

Yeah, there are several, several cases. And I and I've gone back to them to read them, uh, you know, when I've when I've been like when I've been, you know, working or when I've stepped into an issue or when I've been thinking and strategizing about a solution. So there are several different cases, some finance cases, a lot, a lot of cases around around teamwork, because by the end of unit three, I was we were restructuring the business. Uh we were restructuring the business. So a lot of what I've learned, I tried to implement it in our business. And that's not the music business, it's more the HR business, the family business. So I went through a lot of different cases just to understand and just to make sure that what I was bringing to the table was, you know, was was for the benefit of the structure. Um and and and but I would say it's very difficult. I know where you are where you're going, but it's very difficult to name like one case, uh, that is the wow case. But one case that I believe has made most impact for me since in terms of thinking uh business-wise is the Disney, I think it's the Disney case, where where I where I really actually understood what building an ecosystem was and how important or how effectful, you know, the the uh a network could could be. So the the ecosystem building and the network effect really started to resonate after I read that that case. And today, that's what I'm implementing almost in every business I'm doing in my investments is okay, I'm building an ecosystem, what needs to be in this ecosystem, and how much effect can each and every business I'm looking at, or each and every channel I'm creating, how much effect does it have on the rest of the ecosystem, right? And and this is how I understood the the the the the Disney case uh really uh and and and this is what I'm implementing. So I would say that's probably one of one of the ones that have made most effects for me. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 21:47

In closing, my last question to you would be if you could go back to a younger version of yourself, what advice would you give him?

SPEAKER_01 21:54

A younger version of myself. So I will I will give you I will give you three answers. First answer is is personal. So the first answer is make sure you uh you have kids with the right person. The second one is always try or continue, because this is what I've done, continue to believe in the fact that that you you you can do it. When you put your mind to it, you can actually do it. And the third advice would be thank you, or like make sure, make sure you do opm. Make sure you do opm again. So make sure you continue to educate yourself and and and and continue to educate yourself and and um yeah, just continue to learn, continue to learn, make sure you learn from each and every step you make. Because when you're young, sometimes you forget that. Uh you forget because one, either you believe that you are already there, two, you don't listen. You just talk, but you don't listen, so you don't learn. And and and three, you you think that everything is about work, work, work, making money, and and you know, you you you you you you focus too much on on things that maybe are not the most important.

SPEAKER_00 23:12

Thank you. Actually, I do have one more question. Um, is there any book you've read which has influenced your mindset a lot? You want to talk about?

SPEAKER_01 23:19

Oh, yeah, yeah. I I would say the alchemist. Uh it's probably one that a lot of people say, but yeah, the alchemist.

SPEAKER_00 23:27

Great. Thank you, Joe. Appreciate your time a lot. And I look forward to staying in touch.

SPEAKER_01 23:31

Yeah, let's stay in touch and thank you and keep on doing what you're doing. It's great. And and sorry again for the disturbance. But I hopefully you will just cut it and edit it.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

Thank you. Have a good one.

SPEAKER_01 23:43

Bye bye. Take care.