SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of Beyond the Case. This is a podcast where global leaders from Harvard Business School's OPM community join in a personal capacity and they share the real lessons, life principles, and mental models which go behind building enduring companies. We have participants from all over the world, and today is a very special guest. He's someone who's in the same cohort as myself. We attended OPM Unit 1 together, Hassan Sheikh. Hassan, it's a pleasure to have you here.

SPEAKER_01 0:29

Thank you, Son. Thank you very much. And I appreciate the introduction. I think you're very generous. But it's a pleasure to be here. My name is Hassan Sheikh, and I am uh director in CCL Holding. So we are a Pakistan-based family business. We have been in the business for I think last 55, 60 years now. So we are into pharmaceuticals, FMCG, food, and personal care segments. So these three are where we have our operating companies. And there's CCL Holding is uh has also invested in some of the non-operating companies, Health Tech and Food, back and food processing. So that's a brief intro of uh myself and the business. So it's been uh I I joined the business about two decades ago. So it's been a roller coaster for me since then. But but I would say a very satisfying and uh challenging journey. But in the end, I mean it's not the end, but uh fulfilling so far.

SPEAKER_00 1:29

And Hassan, who who started the business? How many generations back does that go?

SPEAKER_01 1:33

So we are the uh we are the second generation in business. So my father and his elder brothers, they were founding members of our business. So we are uh we are in a we are, I mean, today we are a cousins consortium sort of situation in the business from sibling to cousins. It has been a journey. I think we've been lucky uh that our fathers, I mean, they they set the business up for us. And then each one of us, we have four cousins today, and uh every cousin was relatively young when their respective fathers passed away. I mean, by the age of I would say. Some were what less than 15 years old, some were 20. I was 21 when my father passed away. So it's fortunate and unfortunate because we did not get to see the you know the tug of war between two generations. So that's that's lucky for us. But then again, the guidance and wisdom that first generation has, we we did not have that opportunity as much as we would have liked. But I'm the youngest, so we have four cousins today. I'm the youngest in all of them. I joined business two dec two decades ago, as I said, and my eldest cousin, who's also the chairman of the business, he joined it's been what I think lifetime for him now. But but I if I'm not wrong, about three, three and a half decades that he's been in the business and uh he's been leading. It's been an interesting journey among the cousins.

SPEAKER_00 3:02

You mentioned that the the the the parents generation started the business. Yeah. Was there always an expectation for the next of kin to be a part of the business? What were the conversations at home like? Because in the Indian community, right, most families do expect their children, sons and daughters, to spearhead the business and take it forward. But I think today's day and age, you know, that may not be a given. So I'm wondering what what the situation was for you and your cousins.

SPEAKER_01 3:28

Yes, of course. Being young, I mean, when I was young, I think it was given uh that you have to join your father's business. So in fact, growing up, I mean, even when you're young and you know, the elder people, they ask you, what are you going to be when you grow up? So it was a natural answer for us to take my father's seat. I mean, there was no other thought. In fact, I went to do my bachelor's in London. I was so clear that I'm going to join my business. That uh, I mean, it was it never thought or it never occurred uh to make a career or to to you know to do a job there. Uh, you know, because it was so ins in you know, it was so given that uh you have to be in the business. But you're absolutely right. As a family, that's that's the transition we are going through even today. That's from guaranteed positions or birthright in the business, how to go about making uh uh making our next gen members more competent and more outside driven rather than be complacent that there's business, they need to join this. So I think that's the journey that every family should take or has to take. Because as you know, you have to go through that.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

You mentioned that your cousins and you lost your fathers relatively young, you were 21. And so prior to that, what are the quality of conversations at home when it came to business? 21 seems like a very young age to even be prepared to join a business and recognize the gravity of responsibilities that you'd be handed. So, was there enough time do you feel for every second generation leader to feel like they know what they're entering? Were conversations around this happening at home?

SPEAKER_01 5:12

Uh so I mean to be honest, no, not formal conversations. No, I think they were all uh I think you know, dinner table conversation, informal conversations. Of course, there were no structured ways of handling uh scenarios like these in any at that time with us in any of the households that we had. But I think this I think we were uh sort of very lucky that even as three brothers, we were very integrated family. So even as cousins, we lived like real brother and sisters, and that helped us. So the the comfort with each other and uh the trust with each other was very high uh among the next generation. I mean, in in the brothers, the wives, and that's where I think the spouses play a very important role in shaping up the families because uh my mother was as comfortable as you know my father's brother or his wife. And you know, they would make sure that we sort of interacted with each other, we had dinner together every day or every other day. That created that that values among the family of respecting each other, trusting each other. And I I think I give credit to the spouses of uh, you know, my mother and uh the counterparts of my father's brothers. They shaped the family in such a way that we learned to work with each other, respect each other, and that translated into something that we are getting benefits of even today, as cousins, you know, even the next generation. That's what we are trying to tell them the values that we learned from our parents. So, to your question, no, there were no there weren't any formal conversations happening around that. But I think these unconscious efforts, they sort of played played out well for us. Being the youngest, I can tell you that when my uh father passed away, my cousin I I was studying in England at that time. And uh I mean, not even once it came to my mind that my cousins will throw me out of the business or anything like that. You know, in in our culture there's a big insecurity that uh you're you're alone and you're not even in the country and your cousins are handling the business. So what would they do to you? They I mean, I can tell you with all honesty, that was not even uh thoughtful. I mean, it was very clear that when my time will come, once I finish my studies, I will join the business. And I did, and I think uh a lot of respect and uh credit to them that I mean my induction in the business was as smooth and as easy. Yes, I did not come on the top seat. I made my way. I started off from you know management trainee and then middle middle manager and then senior, but it was given that once I go through that that learning curve, I will be there. Yes, no formal conversations, but I think we shaped ourselves in a way unconsciously that everything got easy in the end.

SPEAKER_00 8:24

And then how did you all figure out roles and responsibilities? Because again, going back to the previous question, y'all were pretty young when you all got inducted into the business. So it doesn't even sound like the previous generation had the time to say, hey, this is your role, this is your role, and here's how you divide responsibilities. It sounds like y'all were left to figure it out by yourselves.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

Yeah, I think they I mean, by the time I joined, a lot of things were cleared out. I think my elder cousins, they probably had to go through that learning curve. But my eldest cousin, I think this is another area where we we sort of uh things got into place, and I'm sure yeah, they they had worked for it. That one became the business head, the chairman, and I mean with my father, even there was there was a time when my cousins were working with one of the uncles, and there were disagreements and you know the generational discussions that you have, ways of working are different. So our family went through that phase. There were some fireworks, I would say, at that time, but nothing, nothing aspect to create uh any change. But I think a lot of credit to everybody, they managed it accordingly. There was a lot of rational thoughts behind it rather than emotional decisions. Even you see, this is something, and I think this is where everybody would benefit out of it. This is what we learned from our parents, my father and his elder brother. I have seen them as a kid when I used to go to office, their office. In a meeting, I would hear them fighting, arguing, you know, you would think that one of them would stand up and slap the other person. That's how heated those debates were. As soon as they would come home, they would sit together and have a cup of tea and act like that nothing happened. So all those tensions, arguments were were sort of uh closed as soon as they came out of that room or office or boardroom. And this is something that we we have learned, even today we practice that, that whatever discussions, arguments, disagreements we have among our cousins, among anybody, it does not come in our family time. I don't tell my wife that, you know, this is he said that, he said that. Yes, we tell them that this is the discussion, the topic of the discussion, there were agreements, disagreements, but without really going into, you know, role-playing, and that that that tells you that you have to balance your workspace and your family space simultaneously. And that's that's the learning we have had. So I think among cousins, I'm sure this would have happened in their time when they were left with the business. I honestly, while I was growing up, I did not have any information of what was happening in the office. But I think, you know, we were evolving as well. From, I would say from communism to capitalism. You know, it's a family business, so everything was equally distributed among three households. And then we thought we have to evolve for a lasting business. Should be, you know, equal is not always fair. So then we said, you know, our benefits should be according to our shareholding, irrespective of how many family members or family units or family branches we become. So that journey we took, and I think we took it quite early. And that's that's also been uh, you know, that's also one point where I can confidently say that it helps the family business. A lot of family business think otherwise, but I can tell you uh for the longevity of uh family business, it's the most important point that every business should should undertake.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Thank you, Hassan. You touched on a journey from communism to capitalism. Yeah. Could you share a little more about the macroeconomic uh macroeconomic climate as well, how that has affected businesses or maybe your business in the country, what you all have seen evolve over the decades, decades?

SPEAKER_01 12:17

You see, Pakistan has been a challenging environment for businesses. Well, I think after the early 80s, we have had one problem or the other as far as the macroeconomics of the country is concerned. Uh, I think the good thing is that being in pharma, it sort of helps because that's healthcare is something that will always be relevant. And I wouldn't say it's a, you know, it's an economy-proof sort of sector, but it is quite resilient to to changing environment and uh, you know, the the spikes within the economy. I think the the we have done well uh in establishing ourselves in a pharmaceutical sector within Pakistan. The challenge had been or was at that time was how to create a sort of uh neutralize the country risk, not set up but neutralize the country risk. So that's where the export markets became crucial to our strategy. And uh we we are now present in 25 countries, and we have two manufacturing facilities, one in Pakistan, one in Vietnam. So this is part of that strategy where we are trying to navigate through the country macroeconomics and everything. Of course, we do have some limitations in terms of exporting, but we've we've balanced it well so far, and I think this is where the leadership of the company played an important role. Um other than that, we have also diversified from pharma to food and personal care. So I've been I've been majorly involved in the personal care side of our business, cosmetics, skincare, now e-commerce. I've not been really actively, I mean, I've not been operating pharmaceutical company of our uh portfolio rather than involved in uh personal care business, but have been on the governance side of all the companies.

SPEAKER_00 14:10

Incredible. And where are you seeing some opportunities lie within the country today? Are there any verticals, any areas where you think there's an untapped opportunity where young entrepreneurs could maybe attempt to innovate?

SPEAKER_01 14:23

Look, Pakistan is a it's a 250 million population. So there is, I mean, you pick anything, but there are opportunities. Of course, there are equal uh challenges. But one sector, I mean, I think given in the healthcare sector, I think the healthcare itself, the hospitals, the tertiary and primary care, that's an opportunity that uh we need to have in Pakistan. So, you know, when I see in India, there's let's say, I mean, I I'm sure you would know Apollo group, they have, I don't know, hundreds of hospitals. So they have done well. And and you have a lot more examples. Even in UE GCC, there are chains of hospitals coming up. So the quality healthcare or quality health facility, that's something that I think Pakistan needs to have. We only have what four, five big large, large-scale uh hospitals. It's a private market, of course. It's a challenge for everybody to to you know to pay the price for the quality of service. It's a price conscious market and quality conscious. So you have to, you know, there's always a debate. But that's an opportunity that uh that we see uh for uh young members. I mean, if they are they are interested. Otherwise, I would say uh as a whole, challenges are there. 250 million population it's a big opportunity in itself.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

And are you the first member from your family to be part of OPM? Or have there been others?

SPEAKER_01 15:46

Uh no, no, no. So my my the chairman, my elder cousin, he he attended OPM in 2014. So we we had been we had been on a journey from family operators to family governors since 2011. Uh yeah, yeah, that's when we decided to sort of make the transition. So we did we did attended a few relevant programs. There was a program on family businesses. I attended that. One of my cousins, he attended that. And I think one of uh the the chair, current chairman who was CEO at that time, he went on OPM to figure out how to have this transition. And then when I when I was looking for it, I originally wanted to attend a program which is directed towards more towards family business and managing the family business. So somehow I compared the two and I thought, to my benefit now, that OPM was a better choice.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

So from your OPM experience in Unit One, are there any takeaways that you know you still find yourself revisiting that have still stayed with you?

SPEAKER_01 16:50

Yes, of course. The the biggest learning, I think it's a cliche now among among our cohort is customer is your hero, how to make your customer a hero. I think that, you know, that is that is that will always be relevant. Uh customer is always right, customer is your hero. But I think everything that Das, Professor Das taught us, that has stayed with me. From my biggest learning was the making everybody in the value chain important and make them win. It not it's just not about you winning alone. It's everybody in that chain needs to have that win. Normally in business, you know, with negotiations, you you're very cutthroat uh in terms of, you know, trying to get maximum. I think that's something that I've learned that you have, I mean, you you don't have to feel that you have to, you know, sort of cutthroat of your suppliers or vendors and your distributors in order to, you know, feel good and make pro make money. Everybody has to feel that win while they are generating business. It's a pick pie. It's just perspective that I've learned. And uh yeah, I mean that that has been biggest, I would say, learning or or that still stays with me, among other things, of course.

SPEAKER_00 18:05

Are there decisions from the last 20 years or any experiences which now if you go back in time you feel like, hey, I would advise my younger self to think about life and business a little different.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Of course, yeah, yeah. So look, in my in my journey when I started, I wanted to, you know, there was a family business. I wanted to create or head a business myself. So we started the personal care business. I was leading that business from 2000 onwards. I was so I think it was if I go back now, because I was so adamant of scaling that business that I did not worry too much about cash. I mean, sales were on credits, and you know, we were just it's about opening accounts, going to new places, new customers, everything. That one day when I realized that cash is stuck in the market, it was too late. So, I mean it's a basic thing, but I think at that time the driving force was scaling the business and assuming that cash will follow. I think if I go back and tell my younger self, I will say bring the cash, forget scaling. So that's something it's it's as basic as one can, I mean, it can be, because sometimes people evaluate the business on PL, profit and loss or balance sheet. I mean, this is one my learning that businesses should be evaluated on cash flows. I mean, if the cla cash flows are making sense, you're probably in good health or safe. PLs can be destruction or distracted. I mean, we have seen in the courses as well. So that's one learning that I had.

SPEAKER_00 19:36

Thank you, Asan. Last question. Any book you've read which has influenced your life a lot that you want to talk about?

SPEAKER_01 19:42

Look, I've I've I've read two books. One leader that I I mean, I I read a book on uh Malaysian Prime Minister Mahatir Mohammed. I'm a big fan of him. And I think he has as a leader, he has inspired me of how to how to evaluate things, how to conduct things. You know, for instance, the when when he brought Japanese into Malaysia to manufacture car, and everybody said, you know, they will kill the Malaysian car industry and everything. But I mean, according to him, he was trying to bring in the culture that Japanese followed, irrespective of any industry. So those are the things that, you know, that sort of shape my thinking. And one one book that I also have recently read is Nudge of how small things can can make most impact. Just the last step. I mean, you know, you're thinking, you're thinking of doing it, you're thinking not doing it, that somebody tells you, you know, it's better if you don't do it or you do it. Just a small nudge, and then your believability changes. So that's one book that I've read recently, and I sort of I think it's very beneficial for every I mean who's who's more confused decision maker that I mean, you know, like me. So that book will help them.

SPEAKER_00 20:53

Thanks, Hassan. Always great to have different perspectives on this podcast. Uh your journey is very unique. So I appreciate you being so forthcoming, and uh I'm sure it'll inspire a lot of people. So appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 21:04

No, thank you. Thank you for uh having me and giving me this opportunity. I think you're doing great work, sharing experiences. I believe you have done what 90 hundred podcasts already. So that's hundred people's experience in in one box. I mean, you can't make more impact. Well, I'm sure you can, but but I think uh hats off to you for taking this initiative and pursuing it. Thank you, Asan. I'll see you in a few weeks at Unit 2. We will we will definitely. All right, thank you, son. Thank you. Take care.