SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hey everyone, welcome to the hundredth episode of Beyond the Case. It's a special moment for me having started this after Unit 1 last year. And as you know, this is a podcast where we have global leaders from Harvard Business School's OPM community joining in a personal capacity where they share their real life lessons, life principles, mental models, which go behind building enduring companies. Today's guest is Anna Laudenschleger. She just finished Unit 1 at OPM. Anna, it's a pleasure to have you here. How are you?

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Thank you, thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. I didn't realize it's a special episode, 100%. So congratulations.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

Thank you. Anna, could you quickly introduce yourself for the listeners about about what you do and uh where you're from?

SPEAKER_01 0:43

So I'm Anna Lautenschleger. I'm born in Germany, but I grew up and lived in 17 different countries. So a lot of it in Asia, actually. India, Philippines, Vietnam, Indonesia, Japan, China, so many countries, and I have a soft spot for Asian countries, so I go every year. I am serial business builder, serial entrepreneurs, so I build businesses and sell them. And mostly in the services industries, so built marketing agencies, sold marketing agencies, had an accounting firm, basically industry agnostic services. At the moment, I have three live businesses. One is an offshore staffing agency where I place people who work offshore and lower cost countries with companies in the US. One is an incubator with for serial wealth creators like myself, where take successful wealth creators abroad and they co-found, co-find a new company, basically. And uh the third is with my husband, we have a property management company here in Florida.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Amazing. The third one's right up my alley. I'm in real estate, a hard money lender, but we can speak more about that offline.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

Excellent.

SPEAKER_00 1:57

17 countries in the last two decades, you said, how did that happen?

SPEAKER_01 2:02

I think it was organic. So I always wanted to work internationally. So growing up, like, you know, some people dream of a lot of money or a great car. So my dream was to live, uh, explore international cultures. I grew up in a poor family. We couldn't afford to travel. So for me, it was the ultimate symbol of success, you know, to be able to go abroad, meet different people. So when I studied, I did my bachelor's first and master's very quickly. And my MBA was in international business administration, so special specializing in international business. So very quickly, I started working as an international business development consultant and worked for a few decades actually with different universities, commercial universities who wanted to expand abroad and open a satellite campus. So big universities like St. George's University, University of London. As you know, a lot of them go to China, to Japan, to Australia now, and open a campus there. So that was my job to go do market research, think about the viability of that idea, create funding, create proposals for business plans, uh, for the organizational structure, for the fundraising of funding, etc., and see if the market is there and what the right product will be to offer. So I would take a contract at a time for one or two years in each country, and I always wanted to move countries and moved from country to country. And you know, it's just Asia is so great. You get to ride a motorbike, you feel so free, you know, the sun is shining, people are so friendly. I, you know, I love it. And I love Asian art. So one of my degrees is art history, and I specialize in Asian art, so it was very interesting to do business but also explore these countries. So I had a great run. Before I settled down in the States, I had a great time actually living in these countries.

SPEAKER_00 3:59

Incredible. Was there any common unifying theme that you observed across all these countries you've lived in?

SPEAKER_01 4:05

It's kind of interesting. I think the thinking is so different, and the way of doing business is very different. I feel us Europeans and also Americans, we think very short term in terms of short-term gain. So we think about this particular deal or how to make our company scale this particular year. In Asia, people think about building relationships long term. They understand how you sometimes need to give in to create a win-win situation today, to for it to be a continuous win-win long term. So it really teaches you to consider things five years from now or ten years from now. So think about the future, not just about this immediate decision or deal. It really shapes the way you approach business very differently and the way you work with your teams differently. Now, all of my team members except for three are actually offshore in the in one of those countries in the Philippines. And they've been with me for more than 10 years because of the way I cheat them. And I work on building my relationship with them because I believe that the longer we work together, the more we know each other, and the better values they can bring to the organization. So my thinking is, I think, very different from a typical European, German, or American thinking, actually, in that regard.

SPEAKER_00 5:27

You've helped so many businesses get off the ground and scale. When you were building your own business, was there anything challenging that you noticed, not just about the business, but about your personality as well? Any such moments that you want to talk about?

SPEAKER_01 5:38

I think it's like like any business owner, everyone will be able to relate to that. You go through ups and downs. Like any business, I there is always this statistic that 95% of new small businesses fail within five years. I think it's mostly not because it's a bad business idea necessarily. But sometimes you start building a business, everything is going great for a year or two, and then you reach those typical ceilings, like 1 million, 10 million, where you could be losing money for a year. We all went through COVID, through financial crisis, like all these things. And you do have to have certain vision, got some perseverance to keep going. Because very often, people around us, you know, it feels a lonely journey when you fail. When you are successful, suddenly everyone is around you and cheering you on. But when things are not going well, you need to restructure, you're losing money, you have staffing issues. You do have a lot of people who say, Well, actually, you're losing money, it's better to shut it down. How much more loan, you know, how many more loans are you gonna take on? You are putting your future online. So it's kind of persevering through those moments is difficult. And I think it takes a particular personality to do it. Once you've done it once or twice, it gets easier because you see yourself coming out on that other end. But I I have to say, with my first business, I had a lot of support creating it. I had a lot of support being successful with it. But once I had a year where I lost half a million on it because I had to invest and completely rethink my business model because it didn't work anymore, because the market changed so radically. I had a lot of people saying, why don't you go back to being a CEO somewhere else, make your 300,000, 500,000 a year and not worry about things. It was difficult two years, just getting through it. So I think it's more of a mental challenge for me, managing emotional, your emotional state, your exhaustion. In difficult times, you work way more than than usual. And managing people's expectations who are around you, you know, they will get worried about you. They will, are you going to be okay? Your business partners are worried, your staff are worried. So you're kind of the sole source of reassurance for these people. And I think everyone's been through this, uh, through these moments with their companies where it's like, have I done the right thing? And you know, it's also frustrating making wrong decisions, and we all do. My my vice is I like this next shiny thing. So whenever something new comes out, I'm instantly attracted to it. I'm like, wow, AI at the moment. Or wow, new CRM is out. So I tend to jump in without properly planning and taking my team with me. And I had to pay dearly for that in the past many, many times. Where we're like, we are changing to a new CRM system. The whole team, like, whoa, I'm like, I'm the boss, we are gonna do it. And then one year later, after we invested a lot of money, a lot of effort, I have to admit it wasn't the best decision, and suddenly we're backtracking out of it. I have to apologize, I feel bad, we are going back to the old system. So it was like tough learning for me as well. I think that's something many people do and have to learn not to do. As I won't say with AI, last year I invested 50,000 in AI in my company, none of it now works. We are rebuilding from scratch because that didn't involve and engage my team. So they got put off by AI, they are not using it. So we have the systems that are not being used. And currently we are going through a project reversing it and then building it together with the team. So I I think like everyone else. That's what OPM teaches you. That's what I like about OPM. You actually meet fellow business owners, and it doesn't feel that bad. You know, like she talked to someone who's been through all these ups and downs. Okay, that's not too bad. Yeah. So it's not just me.

SPEAKER_00 9:31

Anna, you've traveled across the world again, lived in 17 countries, being a woman being a woman entrepreneur. What has your observation been on the evolution of a woman leader worldwide, not just in the US? Are there any any takeaways you've had that you feel uh are changing with the times now?

SPEAKER_01 9:50

I think it's an interesting one, and I always say I'm the wrong person to ask, because I personally, if I'm completely honest, I never felt treated differently as an entrepreneur as a woman. And I think I've just been very lucky, to be honest. So I, if anything, I get possibly more advantages and more access as a woman, if I'm completely honest. There are fans and grants, especially in the states, that make business opening and growing easier for women nowadays. There is a lot of resources in this in developed countries for women to run their business. And also I'm I'm slightly atypical in that I don't have to juggle family and business because I don't have children. I have a stepdaughter who came into my life when she was already 18. So I didn't have to raise her, or didn't have to, but I love her, but you know, I didn't go through raising a family. So I'm not a typical female business leader. And uh I think people around me, I have female and male entrepreneurs who are my friends, um, are kind of very similar to me in their mindset. We are just teamrolling to success. Woman, not woman, dog, cat, if you're really good and you're very tenacious, you just get it done. So it's very difficult for me to comment on it. I will say though that there are huge cultural differences. So living in different countries, I can see how in Asia, for example, it can be more difficult for a woman to become a business owner and business leader on two levels. One level is the societal acceptance of woman as a decision maker on a relatively high level. Can you can can cause some tension in a company? Uh, and it's the same with age-related things. Like when I promoted someone who was relatively young in my company to manage a more established team with maybe there were 40 plus and the new leader with 30 plus. We had a lot of issues with that in countries like Vietnam and China, because there is a lot of age-related respect and gender-specific roles. So I would be mindful appointing a female leader managing a male-only team, for example. I could foresee that could be kind of not ego issues, but people are just not used to it yet. I do feel that it's advancing rapidly. So I do feel even thinking 10 years back, there's been a huge change, and I think it's changing for sure. It's still not 100% there, in my opinion, but I feel it's making huge strides towards a kind of equality, not just on paper. But I think there is another challenge that family gender-specific roles are still there in many countries, and it's Latin America, it's Asia, it's parts of Africa, where woman is the main caregiver, not just for children, but also for elderly parents of her and her husbands or wives, whoever they are married to, parents. And that necessarily takes them away from, you know, time-wise, takes them away from being career-minded only. They just have more things to juggle. So I would say, so I would say in the States, I feel women are privileged and advantaged. If I'm completely honest, I probably will get a lot of backlash for this, for saying this, but it's just my experience. In Europe, it's exactly the same. I feel in Germany there are a lot of subsidies, a lot of support for women specifically. I actually feel sometimes sad for male entrepreneurs touching their business because I feel they're kind of less advantaged nowadays. But in other countries, it's still work in progress. But I do see a lot of progress in the last few years for sure.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

Could you talk a little bit about your current business? I understand the virtual staffing company, the property management business, but you also have a third business. Could you speak a little more about that and how you work with business leaders and entrepreneurs?

SPEAKER_01 13:50

Yeah, so offshore staffing business actually had to change a lot. I've had this company in the last 15 years. So usually I build something and sell it pretty quickly. So once the company hits a certain level, I don't want to be involved with boards of directors, you know, someone managing me, me reporting to someone, and other people being involved in key decision making. So usually I do a no-partner companies, build them certain levels, and sell. So the offshore staffing, I was one of the first ones in the US to offer home-based staff who are working in countries like India, South Africa, Argentina, Philippines from home for to work for companies here in the US. In 2011, it was new, you know, it's pre-COVID, pre-Zoom, so it was like, wow, how do we do that? Data safety and things like that. And the market kept changing. So it's like one of the biggest shifting markets, actually. COVID-wise, there was an amazing shift in terms of, of course, we now have so many platforms to monitor remote workers, we have cloud-based encryptions for data, a lot of things to protect data online. So with that came a bigger market, you know, more clients are interested in it, but also a higher awareness of different risks. So people think like, oh, the market is bigger, it's such a good business. But we had to change our business completely substantially to accommodate that, you know, in terms of data protection, in terms of how we train our staff on cybersecurity and things like that. And once we've gone through that, and also the competition popped up, suddenly there were hundreds of virtual assistant agencies called emailing, called calling business owners. Hey, I have a chief virtual assistant for you. Do you need a bookkeeper? I'll get you a bookkeeper from India. Unfortunately, their cultural understanding of cultural differences was non-existent. So they didn't do a great job. And that created a very negative reputation in the market. So many people got burned. They hired, you know, low-cost staff, didn't have a good experience, and then got put off and said never again, and told all their friends. So suddenly we had this like submarket who said, I'll never work with stuff outside of the US. And now again, you know, with AI, suddenly people started asking me, do you think you will be left with no business with a couple of years? So why would you say that? Well, AI can do a lot of things. You know, AI can replace an executive assistant, AI can replace a call center agent. So we actually completely rebuilt our business model because of AI. So we used to offer kind of admin staff and call center agents and kind of entry-level stuff. Now we re-rebuilt, reoriented ourselves. We work with law firms and accounting firms, and we offer uh only professional, experienced professionals, accountants, bookkeepers, paralegals who have over 10 years of experience in their field and also already worked with an American company online from home before. So that's our niche. No one else is doing it, but to rebuild for that niche, it was very time-consuming and very expensive. You know, we had to build testing specifically for paralegals, proctoring, vetting. So it was completely retrained the entire team on recruiting in those niche markets. So suddenly instead of advertising, we had to do sourcing, you know, search for these people, find these people, because these people are like gems. There are maybe like 250 people in each town in the Philippines like this. So a completely different business model, huge shift, mental and developmental shift for my team. And again, you know, because we have such good relationships within my team, um, people came with me, which was, I have to say, it's amazing, it's remarkable how people retrained, relearned, got on that new concept and are doing very well. So this business has been different types of business in the last 15 years. It's been like three different businesses, really, to date, in terms of all systems and everything else, and how we do things, but we are doing really well now. It's really picking up now. And I almost sold it three times. So every time there was a structure shift in the market, I had offers and I wasn't sure if that's the time to sell. And kind of every time my team asked not to sell, and I was like, hmm. And I was I'm happy I haven't. Whereas I sold my other businesses, bought other businesses in between, but that business kind of stayed. And now I developed a true passion for it. I kind of know people we placed, I know them personally. My executive assistant is coming from the Philippines to stay with me here in Florida next week. So we are so close, and I said I want to spend some time with you. She, her dream is to go to Disneyland in Orlando. So I'm taking her to Disneyland the week after. So yeah, it's an interesting business, but it's kind of already like a family business because that team, that particular team, is like family for me. And I tend to recycle stuff between my businesses anyway. So I always take my key, I call I call them hypers, hyper-performing staff. I take them from business to business. I usually tend to sell businesses without them and take them to my new business because I already know how I work, you know, my preferred work style, etc. And I'm very demanding. So when I find someone who can survive it, live with it, I, you know, try to treat them very, very well and work with them for as long as possible.

SPEAKER_00 19:34

Phenomenal. You mentioned you've sold a couple businesses, you almost sold your current business two or three times. What does that process look like? Are you active do you actively seek a buyer, work with maybe a broker or a banker? Or do these end up being inbound requests from potential acquirers? And how do those competitions work?

SPEAKER_01 19:54

It depends on the type of business and how much the type of business is in demand at the moment. Certain types of businesses just get a lot of inquiries from brokers all the time. So, for example, my offshore staffing business, it's very popular at the moment, and there are five or six major players, and they keep consolidating, they keep buying smaller players and they want to basically compete with each other. So they grow through buying medium-sized agencies like mine. So I do get approach at least once a month by them. So if I wanted to sell, it wouldn't be a problem, and I would definitely sell via a broker. Other types of businesses depend. You know, when I sold my accounting agency, it wasn't as popular. I just got tired. I don't, I'm not an ambush person, so I got tired with all these monthly reports and dealing with certain types of people who are more dry and introverted because I'm very social and extroverted. Um so it took us two years to sell because the business needs to be prepped for sale. We needed to register all trademarks because without it, it's not really sellable. You will know the business needs to be owner-independent. So we did a whole thing with creating SOPs for every for every process procedure. You have to lock your key stuff in contracts to make sure that they sell and transition with the company. So kind of locking key stuff into contracts. So usually I would say when I start thinking about selling, it does take about a year or two to sell. Now that I know of myself that I build to sell, because it wasn't my original idea. So originally I would just get to a stage where I need to have very senior staff. I don't like it because we start butting heads with our ideas and I sell. Now I build companies to sell. So I build and set them up from scratch, from the very beginning, thinking how they need to be configured to be sellable in terms of company structure, in terms of hiring, decisions, absolutely everything. So all my current companies run on the e. EOS, entrepreneurial operating system, and all my key staff are fully trained on that. I prefer to hire people with EOS background, and if not, they undergo training right away. And we have playbooks for everything. We just onboarded a new salesperson, for example. She got a playbook. We paid her one week to read it and learn it. And it includes everything, maps out all processes, has all passwords, all clients, all scripts, absolutely everything she needs to do a good job. And of course, then we sit down and discuss it, but all organizational knowledge is externalized and we have it all living on paper. And now in our AI brain, you know, everything is fed in. Whenever something is changing, AI is changing it for us across all documents. So yeah, it it depends. You know, a marketing agency, when I sold it in London, I just got lucky. I was looking, I was one of the first, you know, digital marketing wasn't a thing there. It started with blogs and websites, and my agency suddenly became super popular. Um, and I got several offers, and I wasn't even thinking about selling at that stage. And I fell in love with someone in the States. I knew I would be moving, so I said, okay, I can take that money and start a new life in a different country. So it was kind of like a good fit at the time. But it depends. Yeah, for some of the companies, you need to look for clients, you need to look for buyers, and you need to make sure that your company is marketable. And I think you really need to plan for it. I'm now on the board of the Exit Alliance here in Florida, Exit Alliance Institute. So we help companies to prep for exit and always say plan at least a year in advance, but even better three to five years to maximize the value of the exit or sale. Exit can be different types of things, right? You can sell, you can leave your company to your children or other family members, but even better build to sell or build to exit. So build so that, you know, when you're sick, I was five years ago, had cancer, and my companies survived without me. You know, I had an aggressive type of cancer, had to go through radiation, through chemotherapy, through a lot of things. So I wasn't the fittest for a while. And you know, all companies functioned without me and were not losing money. They were not scaling, but they were not losing money. So and that was for me an indicator, okay, my companies are actually sellable and solid and owner-independent. And I think that's what everyone should aspire to do.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Phenomenal. You're quite a fighter, and uh I'm glad that you've seen uh so much in life and gone through so many experiences where you're able to share all the wisdom in such a concise manner with us. So this is a lot of this repository of this conversation is just worth a lot, I think, to any listener who can implement it as well. Thank you for sharing all that.

SPEAKER_01 24:55

Yeah, absolutely. Thank you. It's a pleasure. Yeah, and you're the first person ever to call me concise, so I take it. Because usually I joke and joke, I'm a chat in box. You ask me a question, my clients know, you know, like, okay, is it a quick question or is it like let's talk for two hours questions. Everyone laughs.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

You're able to fit in a lot of different life experiences, and I think that makes it very valuable for the listeners. Yeah, how did you stumble upon the OPM program?

SPEAKER_01 25:20

You know, completely, not accidentally, but it wasn't so talking to other OPMers, most people heard of the program from someone else who'd done it before and loved it. For me, it wasn't like that at all. I was I have a master's in economics, I have an MBA, and I have a PhD in economics. I love learning. I really love like I believe that if you don't learn, you go backwards. So I always, you know, try to read books, go to seminars. So I'm always searching for new knowledge, and I think it's partly part of my business success as well, that I'm always open to new ideas. My mind is like very I'm very open-minded. And I was looking for something, you know, I've not done anything formal in terms of my education for since 2019, when I finished my MA in art history, and I really kind of was missing it and missing that sense of learning as a group. So I was thinking, what could I do? And because I already have an MBA, going for another MBA, like so I was just literally researching online. I wanted to do something here in the US because my education up until now was London, Germany, and Switzerland. So I'm like, okay, I'm based in the US, would love to do something in the US. And came across literally Google search, Harvard OPM. You know, let's face it, Harvard has an amazing brand. We all are bragging, we all have sweatshirts with Harvard Business School. You know, I have now a license plate, unashamed, you know, Harvard Business School. So I was like, wow, that has some gravitas. And for me, it's knowledge, but also, you know, I started reading about how it's all set up that it will be a cohort of 150 people. People are business owners. I think business owners think really differently from even a very high-end employee, CEO, CEO. Or when it's not your company, you do not think quite the same. So that appealed to me that it's something for business owners, for someone who is very like-minded, going through the same challenges and can openly talk about it. So I think the the main factor that made me go for the OPM as opposed as opposed to somewhere like Wharton Program or, you know, Stanford was that sense of meeting like-minded people and learning from them as much as learning while in Harvard. I have to say the professors were outstanding, like literally outstanding. I uh they completely met my expectations. And you know, going to Harvard, your expectations are here, right? You're like, okay, I want the best. It was definitely an amazing investment. But even more so, it's a community. You know, meeting people like you, uh, I find fascinating. Was this morning we have this WhatsApp chat for our OPM 69, and PJ Sellis, who is in London, hey PJ, he posted such a great post. He said, Hey, to keep my employees up to date, I'm recording a podcast, seven-minute podcast, once a week that he sends employers with updates on, you know, company news. And he goes, like they are listening to it while driving home. And he posted a copy of the podcast. I thought it's such a brilliant idea. I'll do the same. Because if I start rattling on, our team meetings are two hours because I'm, you know, talking and talking, people are falling asleep. This is such an effective way of getting key messages, me being more disciplined, but also getting key messages across to my staff. So I'll be doing it as well. So since I left OPM or Harvard, it's been two weeks. In two weeks, I already picked up three new ideas just from our chats and people sharing. And actually, I'm jumping on a call soon with another colleague who doesn't know how to set up an AI agent. And because I set up mine, I'll be showing him on Zoom how to set up his personal assistant with Claude. So I think it's uh that's what appealed to me, and that that really didn't disappoint me. And uh we continue, you know, there is an OPM club in Florida. We are planning a yacht kind of boat event end of October. So I love being part of the community. People are fun, you know, it's not just a bunch of geeks studying, it's people who are clever, who are ambitious, but also, you know, want to fa have fun with like like-minded people. I really enjoy that. So honestly, I think it's the best investment I've made in the last 10 years in terms of money, but also in terms of my time. Couldn't be happier.

SPEAKER_00 29:56

Anna, if you could speak to your younger self today, what would you tell her?

SPEAKER_01 29:59

I think just worrying less. I think, you know, growing up poor, you always worry about losing money. So whenever things came, now I kind of feel calmer because I'm older and going through cancer kind of puts it in perspective a little bit as well, to be fair. But I remember building businesses, it can be very, very stressful. And because with business you build, with it comes a certain identity as an entrepreneur. So you're not even introduced yourself. Who are you? I'm a serial entrepreneur or I'm an investor. Suddenly, if you suddenly, when you're at a risk of losing your business, things are not going well, it's not about a financial loss, even. It's about losing your lifestyle. You think, like, will my friends still be my friends? Because I won't be able to afford potentially to do things we are doing today. We can't just charter a plane and go to New York, you know, anymore. So, you know, in my younger years, I was very stressed about it, to be fair. Um, whenever things were not going well, and I would have a year where, you know, I had to dip into my savings and actually invest rather than make money, it can feel very stressful. And also find someone you can talk to because when you are in that difficult situation, you cannot talk to your team because they start getting worried about you. They worry about the business. Is the business not doing well? Are we gonna, you know, close shut down? You cannot talk usually to your partner. My partner's always been in my businesses, so kind of, you know, financially, potentially depending on my financial success. So it's kind of like unsettling. You cannot talk to your parents because they worry about you, to your sister, she worries about you, to your friends because they assume a certain status, and you know, there are certain status, so like everyone kind of has these appearances, you know, maintaining appearances important. And now I kind of learned everyone is just people, that even if I lose everything, I can rebuild because my key asset is here, and you know, I know how to do it. So kind of I'm much more laid back and not as stressed. And I I I generally believe that my stressing about things, when things are not well and thinking about what people think about me, led to me developing cancer partially, like that stress of always being stressed about it. So I kind of rebuild my friendships. I have friends who are very authentic, who are successful, but they know me exactly for who I am. I tell them I'm not doing well this month, so this month I'm doing brilliantly well, and then I share. They support me with everything, and just kind of, I think I learned that well, other people are going through exactly the same thing. All business owners going through the same thing. It's no shame in making mistakes and laughing about it or asking for help. And I think one more advice if I could give myself is relationships are gold. You know, through difficult times, it's people ask for help. It's people I build relationships with people I gave to you because I feel in I believe in givers gain. You gain, you give it, it comes back. Don't just expect people to give to you. So I always try to support people, young entrepreneurs, my colleagues, my friends. If I can do something to help them with their business, I always will. I love it. So it all kind of came back to me when I needed help. You just need to ask for help. People are so happy to help. Most people, okay, we're not talking about unreasonable people. So yeah, kind of keep with your relationships, reach out for help, be open about your struggles, ask for help and advice. People will help. And just don't get stressed because even if you lose one business, the world is your oysters. There are so many other opportunities, you can always build it, and like everything is just here, like literally.

SPEAKER_00 33:36

Very well said. Last question. I see a few books behind you. So is there any book you want to talk about that might have influenced you a lot?

SPEAKER_01 33:45

A lot of books. So the recent book I'm reading, I'm just I don't remember the order. The order is Liran Verner. It's called The Octopus Organization. So I actually started reading its follow-up book. It's called AI in the Octopus Organization, because I'm very AI passionate nowadays. And then when I started reading that, I realized it built on the main book, the Octopus Organization. And I'm reading that book at the moment. Very fascinating. It's about how to build this brain, organization knowledge, which is usually me because I would have all the information, but how an octopus has uh tentacles that communicate with each other. I didn't realize that. So octopus is an amazing being, you know, has like two hearts and lots of different things. It's kind of this octopus, tentacles is like teams in your organization, how they need to collaborate. So how they kind of cannot be working in silos. And how do you need to create this company culture and structure to enable people to work together and be proactive? Because that's like true, true wealth in any company, right? So that book is amazing. And then I do not remember the author, but the book is who, not how. That really taught me any problem I have instead of thinking like, how do I resolve it? I don't know what to do, I'm stuck. I think who can help me with that? It's like, who do you hire? Maybe a consultant, it can be a friend with advice, it can be someone who connects you to someone, it can be, you know, a new team member you hire. So it's kind of interesting. I started thinking more in terms of okay, I have this issue, who can help me with that? Rather than I need to resolve it. Like who is the best person? Sometimes I'm the best person to resolve it, but more often than not, I'm not. So that's a great business book. I absolutely love it. And I love it, it's it's a classic, everyone will have read it, but never eat alone. That's my buy-mo. I mean, I'm sociable, so it's easy for me. But every time I'm out and about, I think who can I call and sit down with? I really, you know, I remember old people's past days. I always think how can I help my people. I have like my gang of business owners, suppliers, always think how can I make their life better. I organize a lot of uh dinners where I put bring couples together who can do business together. So it's kind of like all it talks about relationships and how to build relationships and how time is money, but actually relationships are money. So that book was very transforming in terms of how I go about business. Like every, like, let's say Lao Lao, my business, my offshore staffing business. I have not advertised a day in my life for Laola. Not one dollar spent on advertising. Everything is people know me and people refer people. We treat clients well, clients refer clients. We never had to advertise. And at the moment, I have a wait list of clients. So I do believe that in you know, building relationships, investing into people, giving before you gaining is the right way forward. So that book was really kind of, you know, you're already thinking about things, it solidifies your thinking. But I read a business book a week. I read Harvard Business Review, an amazing magazine, just very thought-provoking as well. I read Wired, which has a lot of AI knowledge, is a great magazine as well. I read Psychology Today, where fixing stuff with staff leadership, because that's my weakness. I don't like fall, I'm like, I'm paying staff. Why do you need to motivate them? Is a paycheck not motivating enough? So that's something I really, you know, need to deliberately work on. That's not something that comes natural to me. So, you know, I'm blogs and I listen to people's podcasts. So I'm kind of someone who's always reading, reading, reading, reading and educating myself.

SPEAKER_00 37:32

Amazing. Thank you, Anna. This was such a pleasant conversation, a lot of takeaways. I do appreciate you taking the time. And uh yeah, I hope I meet you in person someday soon.

SPEAKER_01 37:41

No, absolutely. I hope you come to Florida. Whenever you come to Florida, please let me know. I would love to meet. And also, I'm in New York a couple of times a year. I have a big network in New York, so definitely would love to meet you in person. And thanks so much for reaching out. It was fun.

SPEAKER_00 37:54

That was good. Thanks, Anna.

SPEAKER_01 37:55

Thank you.