SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey everyone, welcome to another episode of Beyond the Case. This is a podcast where global leaders from Harvard Business School's OPM community join in a personal capacity to share the life lessons, mental models, and principles which go behind building enduring companies. Today's guest is Ravlin Anand. She's joining us from Delhi and just finished Unit 1 of OPM. Ravlin, it's a pleasure to have you here. How are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:27

I'm good. Thank you, Sarinsha, for having me here.

unknown 0:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:30

Ravlin, how do you introduce yourself to the listeners and your background as well?

SPEAKER_00 0:36

So I'm Ravlin Anand and I'm a part of the ALP group. ALP Group was founded in 1985 by my father-in-law. We are second generation. So it is my husband, my brother-in-law, and I, which are part of the second generation running the business now. It's still headed by my father-in-law as the chairman of the group. We are all over the world. We have 13 companies worldwide and we have uh 13 manufacturing units throughout the world and about 10,000 unique products. So quite a complicated business to be in. We do polymers, plastics, and rubbers. And our applications go into uh construction and automotives and consumer goods. My personal role is really all the B2C markets. So everything, all the business related to B2C markets is what I handle. And for the entire group, I also handle the HR IT and the marketing bit. And we have a lot of investments and time investment into sustainability. We are a gem-rated organization. We have Gem4 Rating, uh, we are ROHS and REACH compliant, we have EcoVadis, and we have a lot of academic programs which run under sustainability. We have tabs with major engineering organizations and schools and colleges where we uh research on sustainability, which includes the 35 energy that we actually get out of our own solar units. We have recycling, massive recycling, where we sell products which are using scrap not only from our own factories, but also businesses outside, like tire scrap. And of course, the other things which are water, wastewater management, and other sustainability initiatives, which all the other companies do. So we pride ourselves in that.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

Quite a uh quite a thorough overview. Thank you very much for that. It seems like uh you're spearheading a very established company. I want to go back to your your beginnings. What did success look for you when you were growing up? How did you envision your future when you were thinking about life ahead?

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Which what what age are you talking about?

SPEAKER_01 2:43

Just young age, you know, like as you were growing up.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

So uh for me, I come from a very uh conservative background. Success for us was uh not so uh broad as it would be for other people. Uh when I joined the company, I think I was the only woman, not just in the company, but also in my family to go and start working. So it was uh quite tough. And uh I've also joined my in-laws' business, right? This is not my parents' business. So success would just be to cope up at that point of time. To cope up and to be able to do something that you really dreamt of being and to be able to lead. And at that time it was a very different uh definition because the exposure was limited, and just being in the office was a lot of success for me at that time.

SPEAKER_01 3:26

Did you feel uncertain in the shoes that you were asked to fill? Did you feel like, hey, I don't belong here? What was your learning curve like or your your journey towards finally feeling like, hey, I'm one of the leaders of this business, one of the promoters. So could you walk us through some of your experiences there in the early years?

SPEAKER_00 3:45

So early years were very, very different. So when I went to work, because it was a male-dominated place, uh, my grandfather-in-law would accompany me. So it was a very different uh world. And for the first 10 years, I worked really hard. We set up factories. Uh, I traveled. I remember we used to party till 5.30 at night, and then 6.30 I would change into my Indian suit and uh take my car to Mohali where I used to work. And it was a lot of travel, a lot of running around. But uh midway through, I was a little unsure, you know, whether I wanted to continue or not. Because I think initially your targets are lower. You just want to work, you want to be there, and that is achievement for you. But as you start putting in your best and you see that the others get more results, I think somewhere the eye comes in the middle. And I think I think the eye really came in when the Instagram came, you know. I think around 2010, 2011, Instagram came and you saw everybody else parting, and you're sitting in a factory with not a very decent office and working really hard. And, you know, sometimes people would forget to email me for the management review meetings because I was the girl there. And sometimes, you know, I realized that people who were reporting to me were higher paid than me, and it started bothering me a lot. So in 2012, after my younger daughter was born, I started my own thing for two years. And I started uh my own event management company. It was real fun, a lot of good money and maybe confidence that I needed at that time. And after that, in two years, I realized that eventually you're making a legacy, you're making a big company, and we couldn't find a replacement for myself. I interviewed a lot of people, and somehow you feel you're perfect and the other person is not when you're finding a replacement for yourself. And eventually I went back after two years, joining the same business, of course, at a better designation, a better office, and a higher pay. But I feel that when you are in a place, when when you're the first woman, it is tough. It's tough to even understand what your expectations are. You think that you want to work and that's enough, and sometimes you don't think that's enough. So it it is tough. And with two two newborn kids and small kids in your hands, it's it's really tough. But after that, it's been a smooth sale after I rejoined. So I can't complain much. It was a good learning for me.

SPEAKER_01 6:04

How did you balance respect for experience versus you know the courage for you to bring your own fresh ideas? And again, you mentioned that you were also battling, I wouldn't say a gender bias, but you were a minority, you know, so it was difficult for you to feel heard, right?

SPEAKER_00 6:19

So you can say gender bias. It is gender bias at the end of the day. Yeah. But yes, uh, so uh so uh can you can you just be more clearer on the uh question? Can you repeat the question once?

SPEAKER_01 6:31

Right. So you you stepped into a business uh which you had not started, so you were ex, you know, there were folks more experienced than you. Uh but again you were in a leadership role, so you uh must have had ideas and initiatives of your own. Must have been a little challenging to push that through and and feel heard. And so I'm wondering how you balance that, you know, and that must have been a leadership evolution of yourself, which you must have had to go through.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

So I never came up in the leadership role. I always came up in a role which was not leadership, and that's I think what helped me. Firstly, I am not an engineer and we are into engineering goods. So uh definitely my father-in-law knew everything. So everything that there was, we had to learn from him, and we all understand that even now, you know. When he speaks, we learn because he genuinely knows more. He's also not an engineer, but he knows much more about the products and the way things work. So I think the respect for leadership has been there and will continue to be there because he obviously knows much more. I, when I joined the company, uh, we were going through a massive unionization issue. We uh had mass uh resignations in the office and we had a lot of union issues in all our plants. It was a situation that was going out of hand, and we had no HR at that time. Though I joined an international business, immediately I shifted uh my whole focus towards HR and creating a policy frameworks, creating a culture where we could retain people and lead them towards a certain goal. So the acceptance amongst staff for me was really high because I was the one who was getting to do all the stuff that they needed. They needed uh a structure, they needed to understand why, they needed to understand the big picture. So the acceptance was always there. So uh I did not find it very tough to slowly slip into that role because uh the way I shifted my departments over a period of time, it was easy. And overall, the company understands the uh basic hierarchy, though we are quite a flat organization. And the good part is that most of my trainers still work in our office. So we are a relationship-based company, nobody ever leaves. Their children join, we know their families, we go to their weddings. So it's basically people together training each other. So uh this was never an issue for me.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

I I've read a little bit about the maternity policies that you've written about and how they influence women's careers. What experiences led you to care about this? And how has this taught you about recognizing potential for someone else's life when it doesn't follow a conventional career path? Could you speak a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_00 9:13

So, uh, why I uh wrote about it was a particular incident where a girl who joined our office did not disclose that she was already pregnant and in two months filed for pregnancy leave and she took away all our passwords, you know. So it was a time that I started researching about how things it was uh we were starting our e-commerce journey and she had all our passwords because of which some major mishap happened in especially our gem portal, which is the government portal. Uh, I did uh research a lot about why uh people are not hiring women at that age in India. While when you go abroad, you know, you go to an office in automotive, there's so many young women. But in India, you go to any office, there are only older women. The younger women are in very low ranked places. I have two daughters personally, and this is something really close to my heart that when my children enter the, you know, the workplace, they should be given equal opportunity. I feel that the policies that India has are not, you know, they do not encourage hiring women. They actually are discouraging private companies from hiring women because they're asking the companies to pay the entire amount while hiring a man is cheaper. So uh what is happening is even if they're hiring women, I feel that, you know, when I see applications, the women are somehow they have lower salaries in companies. Even at a good position, their salaries will be lower because companies have uh put that cost invariably into their salary package and reduced it. So I don't feel it's fair for the government not to support this initiative. They could either say, okay, you have to do this for men and women, and then it becomes equal. You know, so if it's a six-month paternity leave, you have to give it for a man also, and then you make it equal. But if you're saying only a woman needs to be given this leave, uh, you are making it difficult for uh private companies to hire women, and that I think does affect in the middle level. Once it goes to the higher level, it doesn't, but if you see Indian companies, there would not be many women in uh mid-levels. I that's not a fact, that's what I note when I go to companies.

SPEAKER_01 11:17

Thank you. And so what drew you to OPM? How did you learn about the program and uh what attracted you towards being part of the cohort?

SPEAKER_00 11:25

So I have been following this OPM program for a lot of years. A lot of my friends have done it, and I was very excited about doing it for a long, long time, but the time was not right. I usually do participate in uh executive programs, but they're usually one way. And as you grow older, you start tending to find them very monotonous because you can read a book if you have to go one way. So this was one program which was which I was really eyeing, but one month didn't look possible when my kids were younger. Now that they've grown up, I think it was easier. But the experience has been great, especially the learning group, you know, getting up in the morning, first, you know, reading the case studies, understanding what you think about them, getting up in the morning and then having them questioned by your people and then going back in a class and getting them questioned again. I think when you're sitting in your own company, a lot of people stop questioning you. Though you think they do, but a lot of times they start believing that what you're doing is correct because you're leading. You know, I don't think my people don't say I'm wrong, but a lot of times they have a conviction in what I'm saying. Over here, that was not the case. So you had people questioning, pushing back. You know, I always thought I was the best in HI and nobody can push me back in it. And um, my energy group person said, Oh my god, how we've rewritten these KRAs, these are not correct, you know. I was showing him my package. So it's kind of exciting to be questioned for something that you believe that you are the best in. And you come back unlearned, you know. So basically you understand that whatever you've learned till date might not really be the right thing, and that's the exciting part about.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

How long has it been since you finished Unit 1?

SPEAKER_00 13:01

So it has been, when did I come back? 31st, and then today's 15th. Yeah, but then I just reached home very late. I I went in the middle to drop off my daughter to university.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

Okay. So now that, you know, it's been a good two weeks since your last day at Unit 1, what memory stands out the most to you when it comes to a professor or a case, right? Any of those moments which would stand out?

SPEAKER_00 13:24

I think uh everybody in OPM 69 would say the same thing. It was that Professor Francis Fry's, you know. I don't know how many people you interviewed and how many have said that, but Professor Francis Fry's models, you know, they just put whatever you think in your subconscious mind out there and organize it so well. So I think that really stood out. And the one that I really, really thought that was on top of everything was the high standards versus the deep devotion. Because uh she made us do a simple exercise where she made us put every uh person who uh reports to us and maybe people who are related to us in these quadrants. And you suddenly realize why people are performing well or not. She didn't say much about it, but once you put them in the quadrants, you start understanding what needs to change. And I think that was really effective. And that's the book that I'm reading now.

SPEAKER_01 14:15

You you were part of executive education at the same time that your daughter was starting university. So, what were the conversations at home like?

SPEAKER_00 14:22

We never got to be home, so it's really funny. I went uh to Cornell University, dropped her off, and I went to Harvard, and she came back. So while I was at Harvard, she was at home for a month, and I really then dropped her directly off to Cambridge. So we never had a conversation about what we study at all. She's studying now in Cambridge. I hope that when she's back, we'll have great discussions. But right now, it it it's really no discussion. We've not had any discussion about what we learned.

SPEAKER_01 14:50

You mentioned you're reading a book by Professor Francis Fry. Besides that, has there been any book which has influenced your thinking that you can think of?

SPEAKER_00 14:58

I think a book that majorly I read it a long time ago. I I think for a long time I've just been reading more of books related to work. But the book that really influenced the way I think was the courage to be disliked. And uh, it suddenly brings you to a situation where you stop blaming everything else and get everything in your control. And I think what I liked about it is it felt really bad the first two chapters because it was like just degrading you. My God, you're the problem. But eventually through the book, you realize you actually are. And I think that was a really good change maker in the way I thought about life and how I took control of life after it, because it it resonated deeply with me.

SPEAKER_01 15:38

Right. I mean, lastly, what advice do you give to your daughter? Or, you know, if you speak to your younger self, what what advice would you give to them?

SPEAKER_00 15:44

I think I would give them an advice that if you think that the answer might me no, still ask, because there's a chance it might be yes, and there's a chance that you might have to maybe try again. So uh, you know, I I feel that is one thing that I didn't do often when I was younger. But now I just try. If if if I think I can't achieve something, I just try it. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. This podcast is one such example. I'm very camera verse when it comes to interviews and all, but I wanted to try it. I thought it might work, it might not work. OPM was one more example. A lot of businesses that we have lately gone into, and some have failed and some have done extremely well are great examples. You know, sometimes things work, sometimes they don't. Just try.

SPEAKER_01 16:29

So inspiring. Thank you. You mentioned to me before we started that this is the first podcast you're doing. So I appreciate you taking the initiative for being so bold as well and coming out of your comfort zone.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

Thank you so much. Thank you, Soyan. Thank you for giving me this experience. It's been quite a different experience for me.

unknown 16:46

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 16:47

Thank you. Be well.

SPEAKER_00 16:48

Thank you. See you soon. Thank you. Bye.